Mythic Timey-Wimey

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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
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Post # 4

Very interesting read! This article certainly makes me think. I especially enjoyed the "Mythic Past, Present, Future" portion. I like seeing how you order those scenes by the surrounding circumstances by making examples Between Freyrs Marriage and Skadi's choosing of her husband. With more scenes from the lore (as well as some upcg mixed in) put into it, it'd be able to generate a lot of theories about the chronological timeline of Norse mythology itself.

How is Loki able to communicate with people if he's bound?

Throughout discussions and groups I've taken part in, the most response I've heard is pathwalking. If we can do it, what's holding the gods back from doing it too? Plus, throughout the lore and UPG of all sorts, Loki is sometimes known as teacher of magic such as pathwalking, seidhr, and other types.

Sorry for the short response as I am still trying to process this as well as it being 1:00 A.M

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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
By:
Post # 5

This is really good! Thank you for making this. See for me coming from a Greek perspective I see things from a linear perception. Greek goes into Sabine which is conquered by Rome. So trying to understand Norse was really frustrating for me for a long time because I could not grasp when what was happening. Watching Flash and time travel shows helped me to to get the whole this happened, but then it didn't happen, but it already did happen sort of thing.

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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
By: Moderator / Knowledgeable
Post # 6

Everyone's input has been great. :)

Evy, I like how you explained this in terms of the subtle plane. I also really liked, and agreed, with how you described how Jormungandr appears to you due to mythic time. This is how I tend to view my work with Loki. He comes in whatever aspect he needs to in order to teach a lesson: sometimes he is the young, care-free traveler, friend of Thor, with a light heart. Sometimes he is the caring, sentimental father watching over his kids. Sometimes he is the world-breaker, the Loki who has been bound and hatred flows over him. He has been bound, yet is unbound, will be bound, yet won't be bound.

And like you pointed out, Lopt, the Gods are not bound by our understanding of them. If we have the ability to use magic, why not the Gods? Especially Loki, whom was said to be quite skilled in magical arts - to the point of shapeshifting and the like. I, too, have heard it suggested that even if an aspect or part of Loki was bound - that doesn't mean as a whole he is incapable of projecting aspects of himself elsewhere or appearing to others. To think that written word renders the Gods incapable of doing something seems silly to me.

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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
By:
Post # 7

I dont have much Norse-specific input, but i definitely resonate with what was said.

I see time as linear from our first person perspective, everyday life is very linear.

I see time as cyclical and repeating, too, especially when it comes to seasons and things like the rise and fall of nations.

Now for the norse input, to clarify i'm not much of a norse pagan at all, i just have huge affinity for Odin.

in my interactions with Odin, who is the only deity i work with directly, i feel any of his aspects, past present or future are occuring simultaneously. like multiple realities happening at once.

And as said earlier, i believe these beings exist beyond time and space so the laws don't apply anyways.

Is there any order (linear progression) to it? or is it just smaller stories sewn together into one larger story.

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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
By: / Knowledgeable
Post # 8

I'm going to try to put this into words.

For myself, I view many of the myths as both events and metaphor. Time in this regard, I view as a whirlpool. But not one that drains; if anything it extends outward.

What you identify as the Past is the edge of the whirlpool. This moves slower than the center, and it's events take much longer to circle back upon themselves. This would be where we have the clash of Niflheim and Muspelheim (the big bang) and the slaying of Ymir (the formation of matter). Niflheim and Muspelheim are constantly at odds, pulling from one another after clashing, and will eventually result in the collapse of our universe. Ymir's body is decaying, and matter breaks down. Stars burn out and explode, planets die, etc. Yet all of this takes an enormous amount of time, and these myths will not repeat until the Future . Our future, however, is the center of the pool, and spins upon itself with possibility until it slows into our age.

The Present is the middle of the pool, and circles upon itself in our time. Myths such as Loki cutting Sif's hair (the harvest of wheat) and Hodr slaying Baldr (winter and the seasonal cycle) repeat upon themselves every year. Other myths, such as the Lokkasenna, are meant as humor, I believe; I don't think that they happened even for the Gods.

Which brings us to the Ragnarok . I agree with what Einar of Wardruna taught at a workshop once; the Ragnarok is not a future event to happen. Loki will not pull a 180* and betray the Aesir, leading his daughter's army of the dead against the Einherjar. Rather, the Ragnarok describes what happens every year. Wisdom is devoured by rage. Strength is outdone by itself. The moon is devoured every month, and the sun progressively through the year as the night grows longer. Every year, the Gods die, and every new year, they return again - just as the Earth herself dies and is reborn.

In this way, the Ragnarok is the most important lesson of all, and frames it all; everything - even the Gods - dies. Nothing last forever, and our works are not permanent. Our wisdom is not iron clad, our strength fades, and the dead rise for nothing but calamity.

I am out of words, so I'll leave it there.

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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
By: Moderator / Knowledgeable
Post # 9

I've never heard Ragnarok presented in such a way! I really am intriqued by the phrasing of that, and it personally makes a lot of sense to me. I have always had a hard time expressing personal thoughts about Ragnarok when asked because I do not tend to bother myself with the myths related to creation or destruction of the world - I live in the here and now, our present. But I've truthfully never thought of Ragnarok to be quite a literal event. Thank you for bringing that up the way you did. Any idea where I can find a clip or something of whenEinar was talking about this issue as well?

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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
By: / Novice
Post # 10

I've always viewed time in a sort of paradoxical sense, in a way that it was phrased in the original post.

Everything is happening, not happening, about to happen, or never going to happen.

For me all possible reality is playing out in a series of planes. There are planes with no gods and planes with all of them. This has a major impact for me, not in a mythos sense, but in a working/casting sense. You are in reality A where you are going to recieve ending A. You would like to bring about ending B. You have to build up energy and move through the planes to experience reality B with ending B. The bigger the change the 'further' the desired plane is.

If that makes sense.

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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
By: / Knowledgeable
Post # 11

I found Einar's statement on Ragnarok. It is found here: https://youtu.be/zbT8vzX4sZY

What he says is this: "...A lot of people tend to confuse Ragnarok with the Christian term "Armageddon", which means "The End of the World." But, that is not the case here because in the Old Norse way of thinking, everything moved in cycles. So it's basically telling the story about a ring that ends,but alsoa ring that begins. So something needs to die, for something else to live. And these days, when the sun is turning, that is what it's about. To let die what needs to die. It's the end of the death cycle, of the year. Today, or in these days, this is when summer is born. This is when light of the year is born. In these days. So it's a very good opportunity ... to let die stuff that you don't need to carry around anymore. To make room for new stuff that you can reap during later this year."

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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
By: / Knowledgeable
Post # 12
absolutely wonderful post Percy. though im completely lost for words with everyone else having already said everything i could have even properly fathomed to express. most of all i just feel like the timelines are overlapped. different events happening simultaneously yet in their own respective sequence. ymir is killed, thor gets his hammer back, loki is born, aesir/vanir war, ragnarok, etc. different events different times yet at the same time.
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Re: Mythic Timey-Wimey
By: Moderator / Knowledgeable
Post # 13

Thanks for the quote, Pagan! I was curious to see what he had to say about it. I appreciate everyone's feedback on the topic and like that we are able to discuss this in a productive manner. It's a topic that is sometimes ignored or not explained well (though I didn't do it justice myself).

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