Here's the thing Light was around before pyro/fire. As it helped make up most of the universe. but for example we don't count the sun as "fire" but is light. My point still stands there are 5 original elements and nothing more. Which everything is made up from. Light and dark are the bases but they're very primal and are not elements. In traditional terms they are what are found in and within nature as well. Sure you find the "sub" genre in nature however they all go back to the original elements. As far as black fire goes. Well the most i could pull up on it was a punk band, a super villain and something for the lord of the rings game. So please research things before claiming to be actual facts.
Did you not read the many takings that went back and forth between me and Awake!? I gave a source for black fire, if you had paid a little more attention; go back and read and find it within the post, it is maybe one or two pages back on something I said in a rather short post!You don't have to believe this, you may shut your eyes to knowledge and remain in the dark. Just because I say 2+2=13.5, does not make it so! You may say these other things are not elements, and you may continue to be wrong!
Considering that what i found on the matter had nothing to do with with magick Im going to call it rubbish. You can not believe everything you read. So of it is very much crap to put it bluntly is my point im making. And furthermore I accept I could be wrong however I also know the occult has some rather fluffy ideas that are found in no systems at all. It's like this If it's not found within the universe chances are it is a fictional idea. I am meaning the universal concepts which is found everywhere >.>
Because of people rewriting text that I can perfectly well read, thankyou, this thread made me wonder what it's like discussing magick in a mental hospital! A dream I have now abandoned.
Re: The Ten Key Element Sys'm By: AwakeTooLong / Knowledgeable
Post # 48 Jul 12, 2011
Sorry, it's an old habit from other forums where you the text you are commenting on is often copied and pasted so as to maintain continuity. I did it largely for my own reference as I wrote.
I feel that the majority of the "elements" listed, as has been stated, are combinations or "sub catagories" of the idea of the original 4-5 elements.
Light and Darkness could be thought of as manifestations of the divine or spiritual "element" because they permiate the universe and the human condition. They exist on all levels of reality.
I think alot of confusion has gone back and forth between what is considered an "element" and what is simply an "energy" that exists.
Death essence does exist, but it is a product of the transition between life and death, as well as a byproduct of pain and suffering in the physical body, and a sort of embodyment of the change of decay. Our bodies "die" constantly, hence the shedding of skin and hair. This doesn't need to be classified as an element, because it is a part of the Life process which is related to the Divinity of existance.
Thunor, I believe the problem here is Not that people are saying these things *Do Not* exist, but that they *DO Not* All need to be classified as "elements".
The arguement is that you are dividing a simple and easy system into a more complex state, when it doesn't need to be done Unless the individual working is combining elements specificly. Altars are encouraged to have a representation of all elements on them, and it is the energy of the Spirit that binds them together and allows the functioning of the gate.
As for Orgone I believe that they are saying its part of life and the spiritual force, and doesn't need to be considered seperate.
Many catagories can be made of the 5 elements, and the ideas and concepts of each can be mixed and rehashed as much as the individual wants. The only point in question is whether there is necessity to think of every potential elemental mix as its own seperate force, or if it is better or more practical to think of the mixed pieces as aspects of the whole.
I also believe that alot of conflict could be avoided if sources and page references were quoted. You mentioned the bible as a source of information on black fire, but then without quoting the page number as reference most people will assume its not there instead of searching the entire book for a minor reference.
Also, I feel, what needs to be realised is there are attempts being made on this thread for the author (Thunor) to be showing source material more clearly and as well to be ensuring he isn't misquoting the texts as they are interperated. That being said, some clarifications are in need or anything could be used as an example. Psi energy can feel burning, without giving light or actual heat. That in itself could be considered Black fire in the way its been so far defined, without being an element into itself.
TO sum everything up, not everything that Is an energy requires being put into the element catagory. Elements are a catagory, so are forms of energy or wavelengths. Ultimatly they are systems of measurement and classification, which the Individual can tamper with to their satisfaction but should not claim to be gospel over the primary source materials.
As well, It would be nice to see the posting become abit less purposly insulting, belittling or antagonistic.
Re: The Ten Key Element Sys'm By: AwakeTooLong / Knowledgeable
Post # 50 Jul 12, 2011
Thank you Flagg, for summing up what I could not express in my current, rather unpleasant, state of mind.
I'd like to apologize Thunor for my tone throughout this. I let too much of other issues going on in my life seep through into my frustration within this debate. Nothing you said warranted the crass manner in which I reacted in some circumstances, and indeed my doing so only distracted from what I had to say.
Thank you Flagg for that post; I agree with your concepts, but I still disagree on the elemental thing...oh, well people will always be different. The point is, that someone can come on here and choose to accept it as element or non-element, it is their personal choice. Many will accept it as there is a great deal of evidence on that "truth", BUT on the other hand, other's will choose not to think of them as elements because there is also much evidence on this part. You can choose to believe what I say in totallity, in partiality, or not at all. I only posted this to give helpful information. As far as sources: I was not attempting to write a research project, just give knowledge of what I had found out over the years, thus meaning I would have to search long and hard to find these sources.
Apology accepted Awake. I understand, I must apologize for my increasingly harsh reactions on the matter myself.
