well thats the thing Science only prooves what our senses tell it right. And if you people all know it exist becuase of what you've felt and seen then that should be proof on its own. We know water froze becuase we feel that it's become solid and cold. So it really should be able to proove some of magic. And as for the whole asking proof of magic is rude... If this is a public site. and ANYONE can do magic if they truely belief. Then why is it showing proof of magic is rude? It should be encourage if anything shouldn't it?
I guess it's not rude, but feelings cannot be passed on through a video camera. There are some people good with telekinesis and they can spin the psi wheel (folded piece of small origami paper on a needle), but then there's so many ways people can fake it...
Yes well thats the thing. Documenting whats is happening will simply weed out the fakers and the people simply tricking them selves. Some thing might seem magical by nature but really have a pretty simple explination. And the fact that you're not suppost to doccument record or show off any of these things really makes it hard to do anythign with it. to try and proove to any one anything or to know what your doing wrong/right. I find alot of this is shrouded in mystery for no reason other then to be mysterious now. Like 300 years ago where you'd be burned or killed for doing these things. THEN YEA I could understand. But now adays I find it's more or less to add to the "look" of magic and it's mysteriousness. And find it gives to much of a haven to those who lie about they're abilities. I find you can tell the difference pretty easly. Like for instance. the moderator Chaos said he was getting small burn marks on his finger tips. Nothing magical about burn marks and he wanted to know if it was simply nothign to worry about or bad. I asked for a picture. He got really defencive for no reason. First he claimed the picture was to bright and the burns where too small so never bothered to post it (im sure i could of lowered the gamma down and zoomed with photoshop (yes you can use photoshop to simply enhance things and not down right put in things that aren't there. And yes you can tell the difference.....) and then I was accused of trying to disproove..... I really wasn't just wanted to know what it looked like. But now I don't believe he even has burn marks. From his charka or other wise. He can say what ever he wants. They were simply burn marks wether caused magically or other wise. People on here are so mad at people claiming proof that now simply asking to see anything or clerification is something to be looked down upon and I really don't believe in that at all.
The problem is that a photograph doesn't really prove anything. I'll not claim belief or disbelief in the chakra burns, but I know he was given appropriate advice if it was true.
I'm not saying this is a parlor trick I know, but I could send you a picture of a stick and another of a snake and claim they are one in the same but even if I had a third picture half stick and half snake, all I have physically proven is I have a stick and I have a snake. Especially in the mind of a skeptic. If Chaos had done this, all you would have seen is hands and burns, proving he had both but not why or how. Your skeptocosm would have prevented any actual helpful insight and that's all he asked for.
If you really must have proof for yourself, try some things...for yourself. Feel the empowerment of your own chakras being opened. Feel the ways you are able to direct the energy. Feel your own third eye open. Step through the gates in your mind. If you are not willing to try for yourself, you should give up on finding spiritual or physical proof because all you are going to accomplish is bringing down the people around you for selfish gain. And that empowers nobody.
Ever heard the sayong "if you're not helping, you're hindering." ? I know that you're trying to help yourself and maybe even a few others by compiling evidence in a case for or against magick and it's practicioners. But at the same time you're failing to actually open your mind to the thought that magick offers more inward proof to practitioners than outward to the curious. The curious will always be encouraged to open their minds and try it themselves. And if they are not willing then magick does not exist to them.
The lack of a picture wasn't what made me disproove it was the defenciveness and finger pointing that made me believe it wasn't true. And if it isn't even true I shouldn't even wast my time trying to give advice to somethign that doesn't exist. because if i do so it makes it seem like it does and next thing you know poeple all over the place are claiming chakra burns ect ect
Really don't expect a straight answer that begins with "chaos" but... Chaos magick has a lot to do with "paradigms". You can't say belief has nothing to do with it, because belief shapes experience and reality. If science measures experience, like you said... then what happens if experience is wrong, what's left?
I've seen a discovery channel documentary where a hypnotist let a man stick his arm in a tub of ice water, and told him to visualize himself at a beach. The hypnotist asked him how it felt, and the subject looked down at his arm in the ice and said, "It's warm." Doesn't look like what we experience is very reliable. If we insist "that's just one brain-washed guy, everyone ELSE knows that ice is cold" then what, truth is decided by majority vote? That can't be right!
Science is objective, though-- you can stick a thermometer in that bucket of ice and, even though people can say it's warm, science can put a number to that temperature without judgements of "warm" or "cold"... they can describe what they've observed the water molecules doing at that number. They can point out the parts of the brain that make some people's perception of "cold" different from others, in certain conditions (hypnosis, or maybe they come from an environment that's even colder.)
You could argue that the thermometer itself is just as much an opinion as "ice is cold," that all spoons and the taste of chicken are just the dreams of the giant robot from the Matrix or some other kind of mass-hypnosis, and science is always penultimate and self-correcting, with physical instruments for a physical world that we (by the part of our nature yet "undiscovered" by science) go far beyond... but I'd rather take science for granted, because science gave us technology and the internet is fun and I'm not ungrateful ;-P
To the chaos magick super-paradigm, the word "psychic" means what it originally should: pertaining to the psyche. Nothing about energy that's never been measured, or levels of objective reality that only a few subjects can experience-- just respect for perception.
So I think, if you can stick your hand in ice and MAKE it warm, even if they can point out parts of the brain at work, I think that's magic. You don't surrender to cold right away like everybody else, and that is power.
If you keep it there until your arm gets frostbite, and you insist that after it gets cut off that you have the power to grow it back, and it never does... that's not empowering, that's delusional.
I think the main divide, is: are you using magic as a tool, or are you being a tool? (A tool of cults-- not faiths; of fraudulent mediums seeking for easy money from people's tragedies-- not compassionate people who believe they have an unconventional talent for helping others through their grief; of cute or desperate attempts to be special-- not paths to self-actualization. When we use "psychic" to mean "having to do with the psyche" then it really is the thought that counts.)
Now, have you seen the studies done recently with a kind of meditation called Tummo? Ever heard of Wim Hof? Miroslaw Magola? How about some of the more advanced physics experiments, like the electron that behaves like a wave when there is no observer, but behaves like a particle when there is? Robert Monroe, "Miss Z", and the astral projection experiments done with them?
“Sorry this doesn't make any sense to me... "There is no right or wrong definition as long as it fits this definition." if it fits the definition. then its right. but if it doesn't its wrong. and yet say there is no right or wrong... So basically isn't that like saying as long as the answers right. there is no right or wrong. persuming it isn't wrong... I think I over think things to much. And please. this is simply my confusion. If it's shared by others fine. I hate people who complain about being "attacked" when you simply ask for clerification or say things like that made no sense or is simply wrong. Because thiers enough people that say things that really have nothing to do with opinion. They basically say 3+3=5 because its what I belive to be right. I think I'm starting to drag my own thread off topic. Is that a bannable offence? I donno. Things on this site seem to be making less and less sense the more I go on here. I was told to watch my self. because someone couldn't properly argue thier point to me. Why is it my being here isn't as vauled as someone that tells lies/confused about things/mistaken but doesn't want to admit it/just insane? I keep asking questions for an explination. And apperently thats a bad thing to do on this site.... What do you guys think?”
I think you’re so confused, you don’t know what you’re asking, and you’re confusing me. All I can tell you is everything on this site is not true and if you take such information literal or seriously (OR the official source of the subject) you should really question yourself, and I say just go and experience it for yourself. Learn the basics of magick, and cast a spell and find out what it means to you (if you even believe in it). You are complicating yourself for no reason than for added stress. Magick is simply the manipulation of energy to your willing. What’s so complicated?
How a simple rock rolls down a hill is extreamly complicated when you look at the physics of it. Why should magic just be some super simply manipulation of engery. and exactly how does your mind and body change and alter this engery??? The simply fact that you all simply believe it works... and have no interest on how it works... is behond me... How a person could simply be ignorant to the machanics of anything is absurd. Granded i know not every one would be very interested in tests and such. But some are. So why do people get offended at these people. They simply want an explination on how it works.. And you ban these people like they were commiting treason.
“How a simple rock rolls down a hill is extreamly complicated when you look at the physics of it. Why should magic just be some super simply manipulation of engery. and exactly how does your mind and body change and alter this engery??? The simply fact that you all simply believe it works... and have no interest on how it works... is behond me... How a person could simply be ignorant to the machanics of anything is absurd. Granded i know not every one would be very interested in tests and such. But some are. So why do people get offended at these people. They simply want an explination on how it works.. And you ban these people like they were commiting treason.”
O.o WTF are you babbling about? ROFLMAO.
“How a simple rock rolls down a hill is extreamly complicated when you look at the physics of it.”
Who said anything about rocks rolling down hills? I know physics.
“Why should magic just be some super simply manipulation of engery.”
Who said anything about magic being some super manipulation of energy?
“The simply fact that you all simply believe it works... and have no interest on how it works”
“You all”? Who the hell are you referring to? I know how my magic works.
“How a person could simply be ignorant to the machanics of anything is absurd”
WTF are you babbling about, about being “ignorant to the machanics”? Who are you calling ignorant to “machanics”? The fact that you’re preaching about something, with no actual people guilty of your claims, may make me think you’re crazy. You should call some names or make some references and what does mathematics have anything to do with magic and how an individual perceives it?
“Granded i know not every one would be very interested in tests and such.”
A clue is coming along, you think we’re dumb or something? Cause’ first of all when you talk about mathematics and tests on a magic forum something is off, or is it that you cant communicate and make your points clear? You have a tendency (judging by your posts) of using words waaaaaay out of context, like some I will be referencing below. I think you believe that we all believe broom-sticks can fly, and we all live in forest homes. You probably come here with stereotypes in mind.
“So why do people get offended at these people.”
Who people are you talking about, and who in hell is offended?
“They simply want an explination on how it works..”
No, there are no “they”, it’s just trolls like you and no, nobody’s going to waste time giving you an explanation, I might do it if you pay me (if interested), or you’re giving me something in return. You research it yourself, and choose to believe or not. I see no reason anyone would benefit from feeding the troll. I’m doing it now, only to make a point though.
“And you ban these people like they were commiting treason.”
Garbage spews out of you like a water fountain doesn’t it? I don’t ban anyone because I can’t, and once again you used a word waaaaaay out of context (do you know the English language or the definitions of the words you post)? Do you know what “treason” means? LMAO.
Treason is for christians.. to defend their authority and to stop questions that they can't answer..
By the way, magick is not bound by the laws of physics..
It's spiritual, not physical.
Like I said before, you'll never find proof of magic through the internet, everything can be modified under Photoshop and Adobe. So there really is no point trying to find proof when you'll just say it was edited...
I think I said this once before, but if you can't find proof, then why bother? If you think we're delusional then so be it. So why waste your life trying to find proof that when given, you'll say it's edited? Why don't you do something useful like boil some water to drink?
