I read now and then the suggestion of people in here towards Newbies not to do some spells and wishes against the law of physics. I want to challenge this belief. I do agree that physics sets a limit, but do they remain the same and forever? For what I truly feel and believe, would it not be possible with united will power of several beings to even alter and change laws of physics? (This is not the same, it is not working against but influence). If magick shall allow us to influence the probability and outcome of events, do we not just then influence into the logic and processual order of physical events between cause and effect?
No I do not ponder about whether people would unite forces to shape our reality or not. This would be a question for social science and does not matter to me.
Still I will not accept the spontaneous claim "law of physics cannot be changed punktschluss." What do you know? What do we know? We are here a few thousand years, the universe however is sincd billions of years. Our wisdom is little and almost ridiculous and insignificant compared to what there is and was and will be. So how can you, how can we dare to state "never will be" or "never can be done".
If I have learnt one thing so far, then it is this: There is no never. Instead there are so many ways, so many possibilities, so many relations. And everything is in a flow, panta rhei, always. Life is there. And nothing remains stable and unchanged forever. This is the principle.
Do you care about quant mechanics and physics? Do you know that those laws are not consistent with Einsteins physics? Do you know that both collections of physical laws despite official acknowledgement and proof even contradict each other? Do you know that in quant mechanics particles can change their state depending on whether they are looked at / perceived?
I say human or any other races wisdom and knowledgement has the power to change reality already by simply perceive it and think about it. And nothing of all there is remains unchanged forever.
Proof will follow, and people wil open their eyes and start to believe.
I don't know about that. I've wondered things similar to this, and I've come to the onclusion that how the world is now, the law of physics included, is a certain way for a reason. Could it change with the help of another supreme, divine being? Sure. but should it? I think such a heavy change could upturn the entire fabric of the universe, don't you think?
The laws of science change as they are understood better.
This aspect of what you are saying is absolutely true.
However, you are presenting that several individuals together might somehow be able to alter these laws.
On what basis?
The laws of quantum physics differ from Einstein physics because that which can be observed has changed vastly from that which could be observed by Einstein. Quantum particles and the like have thus been able to be observed, and, due to their very nature, have been shown to behave somewhat erratically when older "laws" of physics are applied to them.
This, however, has diddly and squat to do with the very concept of individuals being able to influence physics through little more than an effort of will.
When your argument, and the many other like voices, in this debate has anything more substantial than "because I believe" as its basis then it will have some merit, and be considered seriously.
I do not nor do I profess to know any thing about physics or its laws as a literal science, however I just looked up the definition of "the law of physics" and was redirected to "physical law" which in part states that it is a deduction made on a particular phenomenon which always occurs if certain conditions are present. Now that just sounds like magic to me. Why else do we have spells?.
Will one of you smart people out there who seem to know what you are all talking about -because I am lost and confused-please tell me what the difference is between the law of physics and physical law and magic?
Just a short note in between: Interesting feedbacks, questions and thoughts from your side! I do like seeing the interest and thoughts being developed.
(@Brysing, I know people in here say one should not question a moderator, but your comment seems to me rude and stupid. Nothing on profile not worth answering... Fortunately other people in here care more about the topic and the discussion itself no matter who is behind. Please explain, what do you need to know from me before I become worth for you being answered? Skin color? Shoe size? Age? Sex? Education?)
As to the others, I will think about your questions, however lack as well of in-depht physics knowhow.
Technically, Laws of Physics do not change, and function the same regardless of how well we understand them. These laws are what keep our solar system, galaxy, universe moving along and ticking like a finely tuned clock. Reference gravity. Worked just fine long before anyone ever thought to postulate what it was or how it worked. Add to that list thermodynamics, laws of equilibration, perpetual motion, work and the exertion of force.
There are a wide range of topics that are strictly theoretical. In other words even the worlds greatest minds can postulate and do the math, but at the end of the day none of it is, or has been definitely proven to be fact. String theory, dark matter, and the majority of what we consider quantum physics. (Add the big bang and evolution to this list)
Now, considering that Physical laws do not change...
as we gain a better understanding of how and why they work, some of them can be circumvented or defied to an extent. (Remember, flight was impossible 100 years ago. Splitting an atom was impossible 70 years ago)
As science continues to advance, it is entirely likely that we will uncover new universal laws, under an expanded understanding of physics, and perhaps gain the ability to work with or circumvent those as well. The entire genre of science fiction is founded on this principle. Because something is improbable to us right now, with our current understanding, with our currently technology, does not mean that it's impossible. It simply means that we lack the knowledge and means at this particular point in time.
Now. All of that just to really say the following. There are very few things in life that can be definitively established as fact, holding true and constant on all accounts, under all circumstances. Laws of physics and mathematics are among the precious few. Belief there, has nothing to do with it.
rocksnplants, That's just it. There's not really much difference at all between the laws of physics and those "laws" that govern magic.
The difference is that physics is generally an accepted science with quantifiable results. Magic is more art and mysticism than any real science, with very little offered by way of tangible proof. To me, is on one end of the spectrum in search of knowledge, while science is on the other.
The laws of physics do nothing more than describe the manner of the universe - as understood and documented and proven through scientific process and evaluation. Thus if that is how the universe works, then magic must also work within the same limitations that have been proven to be true.
That is not to say that the laws may not expand to encompass more. The concept of magic will likely, some day, be explained quite well by science. Weather, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. were all once thought the doing of the gods and then demonstrated to be natural events by science, for example. Science eventually overtook and explained these "mystical" phenomena.
However, whether science expands to offer deeper understanding of spirituality or not, denying the facts of science simply because one wishes to believe that more is possible is nothing more than willful ignorance. Belief does not make a thing so. There are likely tribes that still attribute weather to the gods somewhere on this earth. Weather is still a natural occurrence resulting from atmospheric conditions, condensation, etc.
What an interesting discussion this is, and the relations between science and magic seem to be undeniable. It looks as if some kind of agreement regarding these to disciplines has been found.
Just one more point I would like to state, although it feels like a minority's opinion. I did not want to say that physical laws change as soon as somebody does not believe in them or accept them. But maybe one has the feeling - without concrete knowledge - that things are a little different than what most people incl. scientists believe they are. And often those kind of feelings helped discover new knowledge. I admit, this argument is not based on much evidence. Still I foresee that one day there will be stunning effects confirmed by what a few people call magick these days.
PS Actually almost everything discussed in here is based on pure beliefes, as not proofed scientifically and often personal experiences that cannot be reproduced and sometimes work and sometimes don't.