Christianity and Magick

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Re: Christianity and Magick
Post # 21
Firstly, I'd like to say I have not fully read the bible, nor am I Christian anymore. However, as Conjure has stated there is much magic in the bible. I'd like to say, in my honest opinion I see there to be a difference between the magic spoken of to be evil in the bible, and the magic practices of those who work with God. It reminds me of Act 7:22 "Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action." The wisdom can be assumed to be magic, as in that time Egyptians were considered to be a very powerful nation of magic and the like. However, the magic he used unlike what the Egyptians used, was only used through him to God. Meaning, God performed the the magic, rather than the Egyptians who usually were the ones performing magic on the behalf of their gods. (Though I'm sure there is more than one insistence the Kemetic gods performing magic for people).

We see here that, while they are still "performing" magic, they are doing so only with the act of God, and without God's favor you can be nearly certain nothing will happen. I'm not saying of course, that people who work with the bible never use energy of their own, however I consider that when they work with God, or the saints, that they send their energy to God (Or to the saints which then send it to god), in which God then uses said energy (possibly adding his own) to perform the magic.

Magic, witchcraft, and many other words also have different definitions now a days, mainly do to the personal understandings of the people in the different eras. As the world turns, we find more and more things to be considered magic (like prayer, which to some was not considered magic), and other things that once were saw as sorcery or witchcraft to not be. (Such as technology, and in some places women who had any sort of education were thought to be witches) Which can suggest that they may have meant magic in other terms than we understand.

Each person sees and works with their own aspect of their god. Yes, they still may be the same god, but like us Deities can have multiple sides to them. That is why it is between them and their God. Regardless if the bible says it or not, the bible is man made, and is flawed. If a person receives the word of their god for themselves, and is told they may practice, then that would take precedence over something written hundreds of years ago. After all, there is "proof" in the bible that even God can change. (Like how he felt sorry for flooding the Earth and made a pact not to do it again)

Again, I am not Christian, and this is all my view on the subject. I'm sure many others on here would have a very different view on many things I have said. And admittingly I may have gotten some facts wrong, but my point still stands..
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Re: Christianity and Magick
Post # 22
The only reason I know this is because I am forced to go to church and I happened to hear this. Witchcraft is considered a sin because it supposedly has to do with contacting demons to do stuff. I tried arguing with then and they said I didn't know. The point is,you cannot be fully Christian and practice and study magick.
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Re: Christianity and Magick
Post # 23
Actually you can call yourself Christian and practice magic. I think the confusion here is over the definition of Christian. We are confusing faith and practice. All the Christian faith requires is stated in Romans 10:9-13 which states
"9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”(NIV)"
I would personally add the words of Jesus in Matthew 26:37-40 which states, "Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

This is all that is required to be of the Christian faith. Everything else is up for interpretation and is the cause for the large number of denominations and branches of the Christian Church today. How you practice your faith is up to you, although those two commandments give a pretty good guide.

Also, as far as practice is concerned, the reason so many see magic and ritual in Christian practice, is because it was created to be exactly that. Christian practice is an eclectic mix of pagan rituals, slight modified to make them more palatable to the general public. So yes, the candles, the prayers, the talismans...oops I mean Saint charms in the Catholic church, its all Magic. And I personally believe, that as long as you work with God and the Holy Spirit as the source of your power, and practice what you feel the Spirit leading you to do, and not your own devices, you should be fine.
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Re: Christianity and Magick
Post # 24
I would also like to point out that if you do intend to follow the Christian faith, then you can't call yourself a Wiccan. The two belief systems are incompatible. You are a witch.
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Re: Christianity and Magick
By: / Novice
Post # 25
This is such a loaded topic and so full of pitfalls of misunderstandings.

Reading the bible literally does not define you as a Christian. Someone judging and telling you whether you are a Christian or not, or a good Christian or a bad Christian doesn't work either.

Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. This means that you have a Christian tradition spanning 2000 years and a Hebrew tradition going back another 4000 years you can refer to.

A follower of Jesus follows his commandments. Love God with all your heart mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

You be the judge, where do you stand in terms of what Jesus said?

with regard to magick and spell craft there are proscriptions against divination and spellcraft in both new and old testaments. But, do you only interpret the bible literally? Well, if you do you are missing the contextual aspect and the spiritual aspect of sacred scripture.

In the old testament, not relying upon god alone has serious consequences for the Israelites. But does that mean there were no ritual aspect to their devotion to God? No. of course not, indeed from Torah through the books of wisdom, through the historical books ritual practice is constant. for a good practicing Jew ritual is daily and constant.

For a Christian, Jesus is the fulfillment of the old law and within Acts is the outline of the new law. Gentiles are now allowed to worship Yahweh AND do not have to follow the laws of moses to do so.

It comes down to intent. if you think you can manipulate god or spiritual powers to achieve your own ends, go for it, but be aware that you have responsibility for those actions. At the very judgement here...that is for god alone.

Medieval and Rennaiscance Christianity had to do with authority and how a Christian respects that. Once Constantine made Christianity the religion of the roman empire, religion became associated with kingship and maintaining the status quo. Life on earth is meant to reflect life in heaven with god on top and hierarchy below. With the decline of the roman empire, the church was forced to step in to maintain a semblance of order for civilization to continue. Tah Dah! The feudal system.

Protestant Christianity flourished initially because there were nobles who could not break the chritian paradigm but did not want to take orders from an emperor in Vienna or a pope in rome. Their issues were different from their southern counterparts. Whether Catholicism or Protestantism is a better "version" or "truer" to the teachings of Christ is a moot point. It can, is, was, and will be argued ad nauseum.

What does this have to do with you and the apparent paradox of practicing magick and being a Christian? Well it comes to intent. Do you love god with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself? Do you accept jesus as the deity or an aspect of the deity?

Why couldn't you approach God, the deity, divinity through alternate forms of spirituality?

Well it is your choice.

But I can tell you this. As a practicing roman catholic, I recognize the ritual of the mass and the components of that ritual as "magickal" in a very real and spiritual sense.

But that's an entirely different subject

Merry Christmas and best of luck to you on your path!

~ Thor
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Re: Christianity and Magick
Post # 26
I've been wondering the same thing. Especially since there are versus like:
Exodus 22:18 ESV
You shall not permit a sorceress to live
Leviticus 19:31 ESV
Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 20:27 ESV
A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 20:6 ESV
If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.
Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.?
Galatians 5:19-21 ESV
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

Revelation 22:15 ESV
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
1 Chronicles 10:13-14 ESV
So Saul died for his breach of faith. He broke faith with the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance. He did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse

Those are a just few versus in the bible about sorcery. There are still many others
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Re: Christianity and Magick
Post # 27
We'll that is true....the word "witch" was originally the Hebrew word for "poisoner" but during the dark ages it was changed to assist with their crusade to rid the world of magick. Now a days, the majority of the people believe magick and Satanism is synonymous when in reality, there are so many different levels and beliefs....I personally only believe in the existence of evil. But coming from a Christian background and now being Wiccan...I can tell you exactly the way we see this stuff.

Least from personal experience and outlook...

I believe that there is an almighty being that is older than most galaxies.

I believe that in order to be able to overlook everything...he has called for aid to
watch and report back (aid as in Mother Nature, Father Time, Demi gods etc)

A lot of people I know invoke God in their spells and incantations feeling as if the spell will be cleaner or more pure ( this isn't my personal outlook but I know a few people like that)

And on the topic of this whole conversation...
I feel as tho Christian pagans are the underdog of the pagan religions. We are looked at as blasphemous from both sides of our beliefs. There is hardly any information or even amulets (a pentacle with a cross) to be found anywhere. It is extremely unfortunate to get the slander stick from Christians (which is why we left that religion in the first place) and come to a loving open religion where you are good enough just being you (supposedly) and still being belittled matter....this kind of conversation is the reason I'm solitary...I'm just sad that even with this beautiful religion....people still can't see past their box...
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Re: Christianity and Magick
Post # 28
I meant that I am Christian pagan...not Wiccan :)
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Re: Christianity and Magick
Post # 29
I first point out that the line "Never suffer a witch to live" was added by a king who was phobic of witches. He replaced the original line with that one. Second Jesus was in a coven of him and his 12 disciples. That's thirteen wise men who constantly do magick. It's like reading a huge book of spells.
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Re: Christianity and Magick
By: Moderator / Adept
Post # 30
Anyone studying Christianity should study the Emperor Constantine and the Conference of Nicea. That is when Christianity became "blended" with Roman beliefs. It is only recently that the Catholic Church stopped calling itself The Roman Catholic Church.
All over the world people believe that Christ was born on December 25; the birthday of the Roman God Mithras.
It was Constantine who made Jesus "Divine", and used the symbol of the cross. The original sign of Christianity was not a cross! It was a fish!
Since Constantine, Christianity has evolved into so many "branches" that there are now as many different Christians as leaves on a tree. The same is true of Wicca. Neo-Wicca bears no resemblance to the original; as Lark is constantly trying to poitn out!
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