The Lord and the Lady

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Re: The Lord and the Lady
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Post # 11
Most of the time, Brysing yes, and I actually agree. But if we look at the account some witches. Gemma Gary's works on Cornish witchcraft for example identify the horned God "Bucca" with the devil, this can be seen from her work "Traitional witchcraft" and "The Devil's Dozen".

The issue with witchcraft is that there is the core aspect of seeking knowledge and applying thi knowledge to cause change, and then on top of this it is embellished by the individual practitioner and their lineage (Be it familial or initiatory).

If we are to believe Gardner's story of the New Forest coven (Which I most certainly do not!) he only got one flavour of witchcraft and it is not wholly representative of the craft as a whole.

I don't proclaim that every witch made/makes this identification, rather, that only some did and do. I have different opinions on the origins of Gardner's religion than most and I personally only see scraps of a witchcraft tradition, certainly nothing substantial. He flitted from magical group to magical group and never really excelled anywhere.

Without Doreen Valiente, who was a traditional witch from an Essex coven, Wicca would have been a poor tradition, it is mostly her additions which align Wicca with witchcraft, and even then, it is only her and her lineage's take on it.

Similarily if we look at witchcraft practices present in the 1600s we find the emergence of a Christian form of witchcraft as Christianity had more or less taken over most of Britain at the time which resulted in a strange mixture of paganism and Christianity in which the solar lord is Jesus Christ and the spirits worked with are angels.

My main point being, doesn't matter what somebody else calls your God, one person will call it imagination, another a God, another a demon. What you call it, your relationship, and your understanding is what truly matters.
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Re: The Lord and the Lady
By: Moderator / Adept
Post # 12
I'm sorry,Hadit. But Cornish witchcraft was far from the beginning of witchcraft! And witchcraft is far older than the 16th century!
You are correct about Valiente. But there were others before her, such as Crowley. But even they are babies compared with the ancient witches, and witchcraft itself. Witchcraft has existed since Man first walked on two legs! It is the constant curiosity of the Human, to want to "know".The constant question, "What if?" What if I mixed this with that, what would happen? That, is witchcraft.
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Re: The Lord and the Lady
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Post # 13
I used the 16th century as an example of how a religious movement changed certain beliefs which witches had so that their methods of magic were in line with the spiritual beliefs of the time.

Crowley is a great example of where Gardner embellished the little material he had before Valiente (who never gets the respect she deserves) came along and rewrote the little Gardner had put together.

My main point here is the core of witchcraft, as you have defined it above, never changes. The outer expression of witchcraft is moulded, effected, and resonates with current cultural and spiritual beliefs of the time, or rather, of the practitioner themselves, which is why in the 16th century we have Christian witches, why we now have a resurgence of pagan witches due to the revival of magic which occured in the 19th century.

Why witches in Britain 2000 years ago would probably have worked with the 'spirits' of the trees and plants to concoct medicines to cure the sick, and probably worshipped the sun as the giver of life.

Witchcraft remains the same, but the outer expression evolves and through this evolution there are many forms of witchcraft which look completely different on the outside, and all of these will define their spirits (if they work with them) in different ways. Your outer expression from what I can tell is that witchcraft and science are one and the same and the belief in spirits is unsbtantiated supernatual nonsense, if this is the case, your version of witchcraft has evolved keeping the same core message of understanding nature, except your 'spirits' are the laws of the physical universe.

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Re: The Lord and the Lady
By: Moderator / Adept
Post # 14
Indeed so! Over the centuries, witchcraft has almost always been mixed-up with The Occult.(Beliefs).
And yes, witchcraft is Science,or Alchemy, or magic. And you are correct. I do not believe in spirits, or anything else supernatural. But I do understand why others believe! I don't really care what others believe; so long as they don't try to make me believe it!
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