I have a point to make. I know this is in violation of my other post (i am done) but I have to get this off my chest cause I think it is a good point. For all the people who say things like flying are impossible I have a question for you. What makes you think it is. I realize you have logic and reason on your side but just because science decrees it doesn't make it so. Until 500 years ago every thought the earth was flat. And it took Coperincas to discover that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around. So your telling me your so fixed in your beliefs that you cannot even admit that you might be wrong. That is what annoys me. I used to be like you. Logical and reasonable. But then I opened my mind and saw a whole world that science says doesn't exist. But you people won't even admit there is the slightest possibility you might be wrong. To me that is just arrogant and cocky. So based on this argument tell me your standpoint. I promise to be fair and not judgemental if you promise to be the same. I look forward to see how you handle this argument.
Re: Most Likely
By: WhiteRav3n / Knowledgeable Feb 05, 2012
Post # 3
Do you want to know why? Because of people like this.
You need logic and reasoning in life. You wanted to bring up a flat earth? People still believe it. Does that make them right? You can believe what you wish, but it doesn't make belief a "fact". You can rationalize it all you want to (as these people have), but that doesn't mean it will be accepted by others. If you're going to believe something, then no one can stop you. But don't expect others to share your beliefs.
Having belief that anything is possible is a very beautiful thought, quotes like "I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies,
the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's
to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and
now.' -John Lennon
Take notice to this part, "it all exists, even if it's in your mind."
Science relies on theories. They guess, they don't "know". But logic and reasoning tells me birds can fly, insects can fly, but I've never seen a human fly, therefore, they can't naturally fly. All animals and insects that fly have wings, and we do not. We can, however, fly astrally, in dreams, etc.
Re: Most Likely
By: Personified Moderator / Knowledgeable Feb 05, 2012
Post # 4
This topic has been discussed, debated, argued and covered several times over. There will always be those who believe one way and those who believe the other.
I think White summed it up well. Logic and reason can determine quite a bit. And who is to say that you cannot be reasonable AND open-minded? It's possible to accomplish, I assure you. But there is a fine line between open-minded and obscene. The key, I think, is learning that line and keeping it in mind.
I can't stress enough that science and magick co-exist. Like White said, science relies on theories. To test these hypotheses they perform tests and compare results. When something is claimed "law" or "fact" it means (for lack of a better wording) that it is something which has been tested with the same results over and over.
But even scientists admit there's much to learn, and that things ldeemed impossible (as you said) are not possible *currently* but perhaps on the future with more understanding and technology, something *could* be similarly achieved. This is simply speculation- That's a far stretch.
Re: Most Likely
By: WhiteRav3n / Knowledgeable Feb 05, 2012
Post # 6
An arguement is to be debated, and I debated it using your statement as the basis of my post.
You stated that Copernicus discovered (through science) that the world was round. Yet people continue to believe it is flat (as the link demonstrated).
I'm sure you think these people are silly for believing something so obviously wrong. But it is only "wrong" due to our logic based off scientific discoveries.
Now you ask why flying is deamed impossible. I give the same reasoning! It is deamed impossible by many because of logic based off scientific studies and personal observations. If it was so possible, why don't we see people flying around? Wouldn't it make the news?
If you believe that flying is possible then why not believe the world is flat? Why should Copernicus matter if science holds no grounds to your beliefs?
You may say it hasn't been proven yet, but what is there to prove? The earth didn't suddenly begin to rotate around the sun during the time people discovered the world was not flat. And people are not going to suddenly sprout wings and fly. Science has already given humans flight! Hot air balloons, gliders, and airplanes are examples.
Az I completely agree with you. These same people are usually the ones critisising and degrading people with imagintion. Science isn't everything and you always going to be stuck in their little boxes.
Many things could be seen as possible, but that does not make them possible. Humans probably could fly, if you hollowed out their bones and attatched wings to them. However, could you do this to a person and have them survive it? Probably not. Birds can fly not only because they have wings, but their bones are hollow and therefore less dense.
Mythical beings could exist, but people cannot become them. Why? We are born human, with human dna. Magic does not create dogs, cats, or any other creature. That is why I will always blatently state that you cannot become something other than the human you were born as.
Elemental bending might be possible, though I do not see how. I have met some pretty powerful witches in my life and even they would refute the possibility of making fire leap off a candle and burning someone with it. I have witnessed someone being burned mentally though. It did not cause any lasting physical harm, but definitely a psychotic breakdown.
Hopefully you find what you are looking for. If you are so unhappy with the site, why not leave it? People seem to go on and on about how much they dislike this and that about the site (I have been guilty of it as well xD) rather then making a difference or moving on. I choose to stay because not only is it a good place to learn, but I have grown fond of many in our interesting community here.
Ah. Azul you opened a debate And the point of any debate is to look from both sides. Now you are looking at the information you stated one sidedly. If you are going to debate something atleast be able to look at both sides of the argument.
Re: Most Likely
By: AwakeTooLong Moderator / Knowledgeable Feb 06, 2012
Post # 10
@Azul: Well before Copernicus various other philosophers and scientists believed that the earth revolved around the sun. Copernicus however provided deeper proof and then made a stand against the Roman Church, which at the time considered such things blasphemy.
Prior to that, educated people found the idea of the earth revolving around something else somewhat more acceptable.
Similarly, the earth was not regarded as flat. Columbus did not convince Queen Isabella to give him three expensive ships and sail to the end of the world because he was charming and a scientist. Columbus was actually somewhat of a fool. But that's another story. She gave him the ships because it was rather already well accepted that the world was round, and had been for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, by anyone with education. So she saw giving three ships to an Italian man as a worthwhile investment, because finding another trade route was profitable and her philosophers and scientists told her it was quite possible.
The common thread in these myths that you use to attempt to prove your own point is that these things that everyone supposedly didn't know were well known by those who had educated themselves. Those who were ignorant were those who went on believing myths and fantasy, such as the world being flat, and so forth.
The same people who believed in vampires, werewolves, dragons, etc. as physical beings were the same people, largely, who believed the world to be flat.
Thank you for more clearly illustrating the point I have been trying to make within each such post.
Science does not say that magic and such does not exist. Atheists say that these things do not exist. Science, however, is studied by devout Christians, Muslims, Jews, and members of every faith in a direct effort to understand "God's Creation." Similarly they are frequently unveiling new theories and concepts within theoretical physics that coincide with various other spiritual/magical concepts. However, science does not agree with fantasy. Nor should rational thought.
Science is trying to explain the unexplained. Magic, in many cases, is trying to do so as well. Deciding that you wish something to be possible, and so it must be true, simply because of some vague unexplained circumstance is as ignorant as deciding to throw babies into volcanoes to appease the gods of fire sot hat your village doesn't get destroyed, burning witches to keep people around you from getting sick with their curses, or sacrificing men to keep the sun rising.
These are extreme examples, but no less ignorant than believing in something simply because you have not researched it in depth and there are old legends that have otherwise been horribly misconstrued by pop culture, literature, and Hollywood.
This, Azul, is the point.
A debate is about working to prove that the other individual was incorrect. If your own words do so, then you should have constructed your own viewpoint better. For example, next time you try to set up a debate check your facts and avoid having your topic be "admit that you are wrong, because you are arrogant."
@Unirelivent: I again ask you to speak up and change my mind with something with saying instead of spouting petulance.
I am very open to being proven wrong. I would enjoy learning something.