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Karma and Morality.

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Forums -> Misc Topics -> Karma and Morality.

Karma and Morality.
By: / Beginner
Post # 1
Ok, so I had a small discussion earlier about this, and I would like to discuss this matter.

Karma: lets start with what the concept really is, basically do something bad, and have something bad happens to you.

Well, I have an issue with this. This implies the universe has a standardized morality. This really doesn't make sense based on observations of the known universe.

1: morality is a strictly human concept, that arguably is harmful to the world and the long term survival of the human species. Observe other living creatures, there is no sense of morals at all, they take from others with an entirely self centered necessity for survival, destroy another thing for the benefit of your own survival, be stronger than your competition to be able to reproduce while the weaker of your kind perish without doing so. Do not coddle the weak, but allow them to die. This is the way nature treats other creatures, not with some sense of morality that remains standardized, in fact being a moral creature in nature gets you killed, without a ruthless attitude you do not live to reproduce.

2: The universe is born of chaos, is teeming with destruction, and the laws of the universe constantly apply regardless of who, or what will be destroyed. Much of the universe constantly burns, crushes, demolishes, freezes, consumes, or obliterates things. It doesn't matter if this is a populated world being consumed by a star turning into a red giant, or a galaxy being ripped apart as it collides with another galaxy. There is no moral compass in the universe, it is a giant destructive mostly empty void. A void that would be entirely lethal to us except on this tiny little speck of dust we call earth, and most of that speck, will kill us given the chance.

3: morality is not even standardized for humans. Now you could say killing is bad, but what about self defense... Well let's point this out: to some people like the state of Illinois government, if a person breaks into your house, points a gun at your wife's head, you cannot shoot them, you can only hand your wife a gun, and she can only shoot him in the arm. To others, it would be perfectly fine to shoot the person threatening your wife in the head and kill them. To me, it would be perfectly fine to shoot an officer of the law for trying to arrest you, and I would call that self defense, because you are defending your personal freedom. Some of you would call killing the cop trying to arrest me for a crime is immoral. So, where is karma here? We humans can't even decide on one set of standardized morality, and we are the ones who invented it.
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Re: Karma and Morality.
By:
Post # 2
You argument has several flaws. Your basing your argument on the observations od the known universe when in reality we really have not observed the vast majority of the universe which is mostly dark matter. Second even in the material part of this universe there is distinct negative entropic force called gravity. The universe is not just chaos. There is order. Third, your claim that other organisms do not have morality has no evidence whereas the claim that they do have morality has much evidence. Survival just comes first. Now when you say humans decide morality you are probably going upon hypothetical situations which would indicate vast differences in moral veiw when in reality most people do not know what they would do or how they would feel in such a situation. You also going on the belief that humans are merely random on a spec of dust. How does this correlate with your veiw on magick, spirits, divination, god, ect. And on your veiws of nature in morality, if being moral in nature gets you killed then how has humaninty been able to practically dominate this world when the majority of us have a sense of morality.
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Re: Karma and Morality.
By: / Beginner
Post # 3
At one point in time a sense of morality may have proven beneficial to ensuring the survival of weaker humans.

Well, I don't believe in gods really. If gods do exist, I have no use for them and see them as rather useless to me... So gods have absolutely no play into my view of the world.

if you can show me another creature that has created a sense of morality, by all means, please do. Up till now I have yet to be provided with any evidence of this.

I'm actually still on the fence with spirits, would, afterlives, and other similar things. I'll do experiments surrounding them, but without physical evidence they actually exist that can be measured and tested against, i'm just as willing to dismiss them.

Magic is just another way to understand the laws of the universe, and to take advantage of those laws for personal gain. It's a lot less spiritual, and a lot more scientific.

I actually mentioned gravity... The most powerful force in the universe able to bend time, and light to it's will. Gravity will always act in the same manner however, with no moral compass, like all things it merely is.

Fire is fire, it can feed you, or it can burn you. Gravity can keep you safe, and gravity can kill you. There is no morals that apply to the universe, it all just is. This could be seen as what you call order, but order is merely the mental organization of the chaos that is random forces acting upon one another out of proximity, and the sheer random chance that brought them within range of one another.
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Re: Karma and Morality.
By: / Novice
Post # 4
I appreciate your thought process though it is slightly flawed. We can not know for certain whether animals of any kind have a sense of morality that precedes survival instincts, although there have been an equal amount of cases that prove both thusly. Also, it is improbable for the human race to have a standard set of morals because as humans we are each individuals, while logic mostly dictates morals, they also are primarily based on FEELINGS which for humans since we have a high form of communication and intellect, means that morals often collide and that usually no large group of people will ever agree on one thing. People are also very indecisive. While one person may say that in certain situations killing and murdering may be correct others will adamantly deny any sort of ties with violence. Karma is a belief that coincides not just with morals or high standards of the universe, if they even exist, but with the general balance of the universe instead, light, dark; good, evil; yin, yang; forgiveness, grudge; balance and chaos, ect., ect.. The universe is anything but random, in fact it is so organised that everything follows a specific ratio. The belief of Karma is that your deeds reflect on your future and the future of everyone and everything around you not just the willy-nilly saying of 'If you do something bad it will come back to you.' If you are implying that inanimate object such as galaxies have a sense of morals, they do not, but their antics effect our-self to a great degree. While moral often gets in the way of logical thinking, it is impossible for a human to only think logically. Our morals get in the way, yes, but they prove we are human, they provide to us ultimate uniqueness that no two people are exactly alike, and they give us the strength to do the right thing in a situation where logic would dictate you to do otherwise. Moral is the ultimate Karma control.
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Re: Karma and Morality.
By: / Beginner
Post # 5
Well, I can agree that your actions effect your future, but likely not in the way that applies here. If my actions end up being profitable, regardless of how they were, I can use my profits to build a better life for myself.

I wouldn't say good and evil really exist either, because who's to say what is good and what is evil, when these things are entirely constructs of the individual human mind. Good and evil do not exist outside the human mind, nor do they outside that particular individual.

Admittedly, I have some mild issues with your comment, due to lacking those things you adamantly emphasized called feelings. Without them to get in the way, my sense of morality is simply deduced by what is beneficial to me, and what is not. It's a logical move to discard the things that threaten your survival, and protect only those that aid it. It also grants a perspective of the world where you actually understand destruction, survival, and instinct.

The universe will always follow a set of rules, but how the matter within it got where it is for said rules to be able to apply in such a manner could only be explained by random chance as of now.
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Re: Karma and Morality.
By:
Post # 6
I believe everything has a balance. For example life and death. So i believe in a balance between good and evil.
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Re: Karma and Morality.
By: / Novice
Post # 7
Interesting post. There are a few flaws in it though.

First, animals do not function in a self centered mindset. There is not a self awareness. They do act in a manner that supports their continued survival, but that is quite different from being self centered. If you look at animals, and most do function in some sort of group (Except for cats, who know that they are above all other lower life forms.), every animal in the group will have a function. If you can not do your job, the group could be in danger. Therefore, your personal survival is not self centered, but group centered. Which is also why they let the weak die.

Second, the Universe is not created out of chaos, but very specific laws and guidelines by which things happen. Not all of those laws are fully understood by humankind (Cat's get it though.), but the laws are there non the less. Yes, there is distruction. However, out of that destruction comes life. Every single element other than hydrogen was created in a star, and thrown out of it when the star was destroyed. You are alive, now, reading this post because a star died. There is life, and there is death which in turn prepares the way for life again.

I agree that morality is not standard among humans. We, as the wise practitioners of magic we claim to be, should be above morals. We should understand that with every action comes reprocutions of some sort, similar to our actions. Let's use the example of someone holding a gun on me, threating to kill me. If I react out of anger, in a negative way, and kill him first, then I have sent out that anger that will come back to me as anger. However, if I act from a point of self preservation, since I have to be alive to take care of my family and those that depend on me (the cats), and I kill him, that same caring will be returned to me. It is ok to care about yourself. Obsession about yourself is not good for you though. I did not put that person in a situation where I had to kill him. That was all his fault.

Please, no one think I'm all about killing people. I use those as examples to demonstrate a point. Morals are what you teach 'children' (Hence the 'Children of God' or the 'Children of Christ'.) You tell them what specifically to do. When they are old enough, they are able to learn 'like attracts like' and use that to guide their actions.

LVX,

Shawn.
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Re: Karma and Morality.
By: / Beginner
Post # 8
I mentioned this before, but while there are rules that act upon the matter in the universe, these rules act upon one another because of the location of matter that, originally could have been nothing but matter. Atoms are forged, and end up scattered. Where these end up, how they cluster together, and what comes of these atoms is entirely up to chance as to their location.

In your example, regardless of why you killed him that was the result. How is there any difference? I don't fully understand emotions, but I do understand reactions, and results.
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Re: Karma and Morality.
By: / Beginner
Post # 9
I don't buy into good and evil being real, observable, things. Such concepts are so varied that they are merely constructs of an individuals mind.

Shawn, if you are implying that I have never observed any form of karma because I have never experienced anger, and always act out of self preservation, then I guess I really can't properly argue this without using another person, but I wouldn't be able to properly measure the results anyway. Still, it sounds like a bunch of nonsense.
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Re: Karma and Morality.
By:
Post # 10
You say that magic is a lot more scientific and alot less spiritual. Your forgeting that magick is a science and an ARTFORM Also in magic, spiritualty and beleif can be used as a tool. So if your disregarding that aspect of magic then your missing a half of magic. On the animal thing, animals do what is best for there species. At times that can include self-sacrifice, which many would believe is moral thing to do. I believe that we are all born with a distinct sense of right and wrong that woild later develop as we grow older but has become tempered with as we grew up in our area. Sociopaths, i beleive show us that there is a big difference between morality and immorality. Sociopaths do not feel morality. They can do horrible, gruesome things without feeling the slightist bit of remorse. And if morality was something that was taught as we grew up, then why didnt these people catch the lesson. Many grow up in perfectly normal lives. That implies that something they had at birth caused caused these peoples imorality. And if something the had at birth there caused there imorality, then something at our birth causes our morality.
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