A simple question

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Forums -> General Info -> A simple question

A simple question
Post # 1
Hello everyone and I am new to this website, and I have a question to ask. I'm sorry in advance and this may seem a tad offensive to some people's beliefs, the question is what is the scientific and even metaphysical reasoning behind the Wicca/pagan/witchcraft ideologies? How can you prove a spell can work that can bend the fabric of space and time to conjure something out of thin air, or cause a reaction without giving an opposite action?

I'm sorry if i seem like a troll, but This question has perplexed me and I felt this would be a great place to be answered.

Thank you
Regards, Inanity
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Re: A simple question
Post # 2
"The proof is in the pudding" as it were. While I am not a Wiccan/pagan etc. I am a practicioner and I must say that while it does sound unlikely magic does work. Having said that as far as "bending the fabric of space and time" I think that you are probably basing this comment off of events in a game or movie. I have seen groups of powerful people working together and even they could not recreate some of the more spectacular fantasy spells i.e. portals or gates to places far away, time travel etc. Also "conjuring out of thing air" Again I believe you are thinking of fantasy magic. Nobody can create something from nothing that is a basic law and even magic cannot violate it. So no I cannot snap my fingers and make a ball of fire appear from nowhere and burn on nothing, but yes I can with some consintration set a building aflame. Questions? Comments? Feel free to message me.
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Re: A simple question
Post # 3
Ok, here is a question, how can the combined actions of neurons firing off at once to "Channel" energy into something to set it ablaze as you claim?
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Re: A simple question
By: / Knowledgeable
Post # 4
Most magickal practioners of past and present believe one specific thing. Everything in the world originated from a single source and the energy of that single source connects us to all things. Each individual is a part of the whole. We effect it each and every day. This leads into cause and effect (which goes by many names). What we do is a ripple in the water or a vibration on a strand of the web. Simply, what you put out effects that which surrounds you. Now let's apply this to magick. We tap into this all through an altered state of consciousness and utilize it by deliberately effecting our target through our inner connection. In addition, we can use our connection to link to other sources of energy to further amplify this effect.

But this all isn't as simple as it sounds. There is a science to it when you get into magick that physically changes something (not just mental/emotional manipulation or assessing the spiritual side of things).

Since we as magickal practioners use the energy within all of nature, and work from the inside (spiritual/mind/emotion) out (physical) to produce a change/influence, it is possible to effect the world around us as we may effect anything (IE: people, situations, etc). But something never comes from nothing. You can provoke a physical spark from a flame, but not cause an element to manifest out of nowhere. In another example, we can produce an effect of healing in the body/mind because our physical bodies have a natural ability to heal themselves, we merely help it along in the right direction with magick.

When working with nature we must understand how it works in order to know how to produce the effect we desire. And not just how it works spiritually but physically as well. After that its a matter of determination, patience, and practice.

Most magick is done through influencing the thought and emotion of ourselves and others. That is, of course, what drives our actions/behaviors. So when we desire a certain action to occur we are influencing the minds and emotions of others to cause them to produce the effect, be it positive or negative. The more complicated the goal, the more psychology gets involved--we must have a good understanding of people in general. When getting into more physical magick, for instance healing or causing illness, an understanding of the way things works on a physical level (science) must be utilized.
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Re: A simple question
Post # 5
when will humans learn you doubt magic bad things will happen.. I mean look whats about to happen to 80% of the world they are going to parish and i am one to say i am glad they are ..this was once a beautiful planet and now look at it...
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Re: A simple question
By: Moderator / Knowledgeable
Post # 6
Your question, I think, is not offensive at all. It is entirely logical, reasonable, and intelligent. Indeed, I wish more people would approach magic with such a thought before they dive in looking to emulate their favorite cartoon or tv show.

For my part, I approach magic as a skeptic. I'm uncertain what that bloke before me is talking about, as from what I've seen disbelieving things until there is a valid reason to believe them is perfectly functional in all aspects of life.

That isn't to say that you must sternly say that nothing is real until you view it for yourself. I mean only that common sense and the application of the scientific method apply, as with all forms of enlightenment and discovery. Take anything to extremes and... well, you start shouting about 80% of the population about to die and other such madness.

For my part, magic is not about such wild fantasies and Hollywood imagery as conjuring things out of thin air and other such flights of fancy. While within many of the ancient grimoires you will find descriptions of this sort of thing, it is important to realize that the people writing these works were both writing to impress and frighten anyone who might happen upon their work and to throw off those who sought the "sacred arts" for reasons of little true value. It is also important to realize that they were writing about the intangible truths of the world around them--many of which have now been explained by science in more logical terms.

In explaining any such intangible practice, metaphors are perhaps the most common and useful device within language. They describe a situation in terms that make it easier to visualize and grasp the concept that you are trying to get across. Unfortunately, these metaphors are also interpreted as literal fact as well. This is the inherent danger in trying to describe a path to enlightenment and understanding, two facets which I believe are at the core of magic. You will find metaphor interpreted literally within any religion, and taken to wild extremes to the great detriment of all who might inadvertently (or intentionally) stand in the way of those perceived truths. Thus we find people wholeheartedly believing in the imagery by which demons are described in rituals of summoning, while within true magical practice such a conjured spirit is interpreted solely by the individual--Three people might interpret the same spirit or energy wildly differently.

Why then is this solely by the individual? Why are there so many similar and yet varied interpretations? Because these are the interpretations of many and varied cultures, who view things from a background of the laws, traditions, and similar such dictates of their own cultures. Also, because these presences and energies do not generally appear within the spectrum of light. They do not generally offer up any sort of auditory presence in the form of sound waves. They are subtle presences, that the most base and largely ignored senses rooted the mind and body pick up upon. From there the mind processes these senses, and provides for you an image or sound or feeling that conveys to you, as best as your mind can, the true nature of what it is you are experiencing.

In understanding this interaction with these more subtle energies and presences around us, I feel we explore ground that science is moving toward but does not yet have answers for. In this way, magic very much resembles the magic of the past. Where once we might have said that Zeus or Thor was responsible for bolts of lightning from the heavens, we now understand them to be charged particles creating intense bolts of electricity. Someday, we might much better understand spirits, demons, the planes, and so forth through the development theoretical physics and other such marvelous sciences. These answers are, after all, what the mystics, gurus, and priests of old sought when they turned to the gods.

As such, the ideology that I am guided by within my practice is both modern and traditional. I seek answers. I seek enlightenment. I seek to understand the universe and all it offers.

Witchcraft, Wicca, Paganism, and other such practices often seek the same thing in their own ways. Sometimes though, they just succumb to the superstitions, dogma, and literal interpretations of the metaphors and teachings of our ancestors as all religions do.

But perhaps you are curious as well about practical magic that so many often seek. Love spells, wish magic, healing arts, etc. To be frank, I do not bother much with such arts. I find, personally, that hard work goes a lot further in life than wishes and prayers, but not everyone agrees. Some people apply these arts to their life with frequency, seeking to improve things and help things move along more smoothly. And who am I to say that they do not always work? I have certainly seen things with spirits, demons, and other such presences that I might not otherwise believed possible.

At the very least, behind such practice, there is the inherent implantation of suggestion. There is the positive thought of love around the corner. There is the earnest belief in the wish that is invoked on a daily basis. There is the positive energy and positive thought that go into healing arts. These suggestions (and the energy that goes along with it, to one extent or another), are powerful in their own right. They can motivate you to achieve your dreams, find the confidence to speak to someone when you think that love spell might be working, ask for that raise when you've cast your money drawing spell, or any other such circumstance. And who knows? They might just help align things so that you get your way well beyond such psychology.

What I suggest, if you are scientific minded, is to explore the various elder traditions. Explore who influenced the people like Gardner, Crowley, and Fortune who very much influenced the modern new age practice as we know it. Follow it to its roots of religion and mysticism. And from there? Compare it to what you know of physics, chemistry, psychology and other such conventional sciences. Explore them with equal enthusiasm. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Re: A simple question
Post # 7

So you are saying our society culturally and anatomically evolved from one source of energy in such a way that not only follows Darwin's theory (And I mean the airtight Theory is a true statement because by scientific definition that is what it is) but also adds on aspects to it? You are saying we came from one metaphysical energy and that it diverged into all of us and somehow living inside of us? That to me sounds like a soul, and I must ask where is this soul/energy located? Thank you in advance. :)


That had near zero relevance to the argument, If you are talking about the "Cleansing" that 2012 will being, I have to say your horrendously way off base, If you can please provide a shred of non pseudo evidence for me to even begin to believe that a cataclysm will happen.


Science itself does not really have barriers as so you claim in the paragraph about Zeus and Thor, science has looked through, solved or has at least examined some of the most intangible things over the courser of human history, and accurately explains them as well. And perhaps you uses magick and the occult arts as a way of some form of meditation and self enlightenment, but I cannot really see it solving anything metaphysical and being able to verify it with tried and true sources. Yes there may be ancient grimoires filled with some nonsensical and other possibly more legitimate spells and rituals, but they were made before we knew that we were not the center of the universe, what cells and atoms were, how diseases were spread and what evolution was. Perhaps exploring mysticism and religion is good for those who seem comfort through "Spirituality" but I find that itr often obscures the ability for people to listen to reason if taken into true seriousness.
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Re: A simple question
Post # 8
@awaketoolong again:

When I said Science doesn't have barriers, I mean barriers witin the physical realm, I did not mean it was limitless
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Re: A simple question
Post # 9
Well there may not be any scientific proof, but all religions believe in something that bends space and the rules of science. As for knowing if a spell worked you simply have to believe the spell worked. You also have to practice to make your spells work, but the main part is to believe they worked.
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Re: A simple question
By: Moderator / Knowledgeable
Post # 10
Oh, I quite agree with you that science lacks barriers. I did not mean to imply such. What I mean is that science's "limits" are simply the edge of our understanding.

I think that science and the concepts of magic and such can meet in the middle somewhere.

As for the rest, you'll find me on these boards frequently advocating hard work over wishing, praying, or casting a spell to get something done. In my opinion, most such works are more or less placebo in nature. But then exploring the nature of how a placebo works, and how far a placebo can go in achieving results... well, that's not something that science has fully explored or understood yet, either.

In my rambling explanation, I was generally just trying to convey that magic is a mixture of theoretical physics, psychology, and unexplained phenomenon which is largely obscured by superstition, tradition, and ignorance (from both sides of the fence).
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