The Society of the Fey

I don't deny there are major risks to physical travel through the astral plane. Reconstituting yourself at the end of the trip would be an even greater challenge than leaving the physical world. I just want to learn if it's possible so I know if research into the topic could yield results. There are always risks, but I believe they can be minimized with some experimentation.

From what I've read here, the part that is very much being overlooked is that the astral plane and the physical plane very much coexist.

Fae and other spirits and whatever other faiths and traditions might call them exist on a spiritual level in the physical world. Thus the interaction of animals reacting oddly to spiritual presences, and the numerous forms of interaction that people, animals, and places have with these entities.

This, however, does not mean that they manifest with a true physical form. This is simply not possible. Nor, for that matter, would it be terribly practical.

Consider for a moment that you are a fae spirit. You are capable of being aware of the physical, observing it, and interacting with it to as much a degree as you'd really care to. Why then would you manifest physically and be subject to the laws of physical existence? Time then impacts you, and therefore so does age. Weather and the hazards of exposure impact you as well. Accidents, violence, disease - all factors now as well.

So you could observe as a spiritual being, enjoying whatever it is that your particular variety of spirit enjoys with very little that can really stop you or otherwise cause you harm - or you can manifest physically and get all of the unpleasantness that comes with it.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

All the same. It's not possible. They don't do it. Physical manifestation of spirits is generally, as I said, a misinterpretation of the presence of a spiritual being.

Those are very good reasons as to why the fey wouldn't take physical form (though I see no reason why their spirit couldn't return to the astral upon their body's destruction), but the only way we even know about the fey is due to all the myths about them. These legends are filled with references to fey interacting physically with the world, which leads me to believe they have at least some physical presence or capacity to take physical form.

From our perspective and understanding of the astral and physical, there is no real reason to come to our world even if they could (at the minimum it would be impractical due to the massive amounts of energy needed to create matter). This leads me to believe there is something fundamentally different about the structure of the fey's mind, body, and soul from our own. Perhaps they do not divide the physical and spiritual as much as we do.

We begin as physical beings who then discover our spiritual selves, naturally we view each as separate to some extent. What about the fey, who (I am assuming) begin their lives on the astral plane and then become acquainted with our world. It is entirely possible that venturing to the Earth for a fey is like our ability to astral project. Maybe the are so different from us they don't even distinguish between the physical and spiritual aspects of themselves. They are technically aliens, right?

We don't know the whole truth, just reasoned assumptions based on what we've learned and experienced. Even then we must be prepared to learn that we are wrong. Magic has never been simple or clear-cut, we all use it a little differently and have different ideas about what it is and can do. Personally, I make it my goal to find out for sure what I am right and wrong about through research and experimentation. I merely ask that others join me in the quest for the truth.

They aren't at all aliens or foreign to this world. The lore concerning them traditionally paints them as being associated with nature. Even those that tend to have other traits that might seem less aspected towards nature tend to also be associated with specific courts that, in turn, have to do with the seasons and the like.

There are also those of us that have very much had interaction with fae/fey spiritual entities, through research and experimentation, and going out into the woods and so forth, or various conjurations. There are also those of us that have actively conjured spirits who are described with physical forms which are decidedly un-fae.

In no case, have they ever had a tangible, physical form. Certainly there has been physical interaction to a lesser extent, but they do not manifest flesh, blood, and bone. And it becomes an assumption decidedly lacking in reason to believe that they may do so.

Why? Why is it so illogical when there are so many myths and legends that speak of them as physical beings?

Because, before you consider such folklore to possibly be speaking literally, you must consider the traditions of story telling within such lore. Most stories of the fae come from traditions deeply rooted in metaphor and exaggeration. The lore concerning their human heroes is as fantastic, exaggerated, and full of myth as their stories of spirits and deities. This is simply the tradition of how their stories were told. It makes the story entertaining - and many of these traditions were carried on by those who made a living spinning tales, the stories largely survived as whimsical fiction and bed time stories in a Christian Europe and Ireland that was very much opposed to "pagan nonsense."

Throughout the world in ancient times, we also see the tradition of teaching, writing, and spiritual exploration conveyed through metaphor. We still use this now. What we explore is intangible, and somewhat less than concrete as you suggest, so often times the best way to explain is through a metaphor. Sometimes the metaphor allows a handful of individuals to grasp the idea better. Some others take what you say literally, and miss the point entirely.

You will also find magicians and spiritual practitioners intentionally filling their works with magical methods of acquiring wealth, power, and love and a variety of distractions that sort out the serious practitioner from those who are easily distracted by "fluff."

Similar sources also suggest that if we do not sacrifice to the gods the sun won't come up, volcanoes will erupt, harvest will be poor, winters will be harsh, etc. And yet we have since determined that if we do not commit human sacrifice the sun still rises, volcanoes are far more dependent on tectonic movement, and plants grow in a natural cycle influenced rather entirely by natural weather patterns.

If you are on a quest for truth, don't grasp at what you wish to be true and try to make it so. Explore the nature of what you are researching and understand the traditions within the lore that you read before leaping to conclusions or creating complicated possibilities that defy any logical leap of reason. If you are studying physics as your profile suggests you are quite familiar with the scientific method. Eliminating variables, establishing controls, and establishing theory and law within this is just as applicable to the study of ancient cultures and their mystical practices.

I am very familiar with the scientific method, enough to know that scientists do not utilize it nearly as much as most people think. Proof is still required, of course, but a great deal of research is based on conjecture, reasoned assumptions, and accepted paradigms. In the end, scientists are still human and just as prone to fallacy as anyone else, but many discoveries have been made by being inductive rather than deductive as required by logic. It is for this reason that I feel justified in jumping to conclusions so long as I remember that I may be wrong, because absolute dedication to logical principles are not always the best course of action. Belief in magic, physical or spiritual, is oftentimes considered illogical, yet here we are.

I am fully aware that my belief in physical magic is not shared by the majority of my fellow practitioners, and that such a belief is often shared by those who do not understand magic in the least. However, I remain staunch in my position because my experiences have shown me that the separation of the physical and spiritual is entirely illusionary. Each are interrelated and capable of effecting one another, I'd even take a guess that magical energy has a physical mass of some kind. I don't know that I'm right, but I would very much like to find out for myself through experimentation. I believe that spirits have some material composition that can be measured, though I don't know for sure until I ask. I re-examine beliefs that are considered fact because magic is considered to by many to be false.

I will give you that such energies possibly possess a mass at some atomic level. This is the nature of anything influencing another. However, an actual physical form in the conventional sense remains entirely lacking in basis.

It is more likely is that our perception extends beyond the conventional three dimensions of reality, and that magical influence, spiritual bodies, and so forth exist within this. If this is the case, it is difficult to say whether they actually possess mass or not, or are part of a concept that is wholly departed from the concept of physical mass. Given the adaptable and malleable nature of spiritual energies and entities, it seems more logical that they would be without much of a basis at all, if any, on anything founded on particles and atoms rooted in the physical.

The problem with jumping to the conclusions regarding physical matters is that you must wholly ignore a vast body of evidence to the contrary. It lends to the whole debate the appearance of you leaping to conclusions that you wish to be true, rather than scientifically regarding the evidence and coming to conclusions that make more sense logically.

I personally don't consider the fact that a phenomena has never been observed to be proof that it does not exist. All it proves is that we've never seen it. If you told me that you've tried 200 different methods of transmuting energy into matter and none of them worked, then all you have done logically is find 200 methods that don't work, but there could always be one that does that you didn't try. As (I think) Einstein once said, "no amount of experimentation can prove me right, a single experiment can prove me wrong". I have yet to encounter genuine evidence contrary to my current theory that anything is possible so long as you have the will, the knowledge, and the resources to accomplish it. Each simply needs to be found first.

It is not necessarily proof that such things are not possible, but they certainly lend credence the the plausibility.

However, this argument also doesn't change the fact that you grasp at folklore to support what you wish to be true - while steadfastly ignoring the mounds of evidence speaking in contrast with your theory - without actually considering the manner in which it is told, the trends within the oral traditions of the culture, and so forth.

This doesn't amount to scientific theory so much as wishful thinking, unless you are able to scientifically present something to support your claims.

Einstein didn't just make wild conjecture that he hoped one day would be proven true whilst ignoring the rest of the data. He presented reasoned thought that supported his claims. I have yet to see any.

No, I haven't scientifically presented my theories, but that's because I really am just a wannabe scientist. I wish I could do experiments on this topic, but I can't until I have earned the right to. I make no claim to knowing all I need to, I simply desire wisdom. I still don't understand what kind of evidence exists against my theory, the same claim that people exaggerate, falsify, and misinterpret can be applied to magic in its entirety. Most people believe magic is just a myth, yet here we are debating, not the existence, but the capabilities of the creatures from such myths.

The only reason any of us are hear is because, at some point, we decided to believe that such a thing as magic might be real. That first step led me on a path where I was proved wrong as much as I was right, and learned about both the spiritual and physical elements of the art. In all that time, however, I have never found any reason to stop believing. I have even determined that this belief is the basic catalyst of magic. This inherent subjectivity of magic has encouraged me to find out for myself whether things are truly impossible, since those that claim so may be mistaken simply because they lacked the knowledge or faith to do it.

You're still picking and choosing. Good luck with your search. Not much I can say at this point without being a broken record.