Demon sealing

Darkked:

As human beings we tend to look at darkness as bad and light as good. That is where you get the "negative entity, positive entity" stuff. I choose to not look at it so simplistically. Things at the surface, are rarely what they are beneath.

Also, what makes a book any better than a person's words? They are one in the same and at least I get it from a primary source honey. Most the books you have read have been censored and edited. Meaning that they aren't straight from the horse's mouth.

The meaning of a word means nothing. Within other cultures they have been called words that do not resemble the word "demon". It is simply a label for the entity, whether it is a correct label or not, who's to say?

I see a slight imbalance as a sort of balance. Darkness doesn't mean evil, light doesn't mean good. This is a common misconception of the human race. *shrugs* But it is your wish to remain within this misconception and I can see that continuing on any further arguing my point would be wasted breath. Here is a link for my reasoning behind it. Yes, it is originally about demons, but it became a discussion on light and darkness. Remember to delete any spaces if you actually read it.
http://www.spellsofmagic.com/read_post.html?post=248997

I don't see how that is the case. You have something you wish to get, they have something they wish to get, it can be a very amicable situation.

However, you make them out to seem like animals, which they are not. Otherwise they wouldn't become so violent when pissed off now would they? Does an animal get pissed off and drive you crazy when you drag them somewhere? Or does it bite you and run off?

Arca:

Meh. Each culture has a different look on things. Within this demons is no different. Who is to say that the Mayan gods weren't really demons? Or Kali wasn't a demon? Or any number of gods and goddesses weren't gods or goddesses but rather were demons? Unless you walk upto that god or goddess or demon and ask yourself, how will you really know? Lol.

As for fallacy and falsehood, who says that anything that anyone speaks is truth? I don't believe in any one thing being true, or false. So, does this make this thread full of fallacies and falsehoods? Perhaps. Does that mean there are *no* grains of truth? Perhaps. Am I gonna worry over who is right and who is wrong? Not really, because...I don't need to. All I need to know, is that right now, my way works for me. So if your way, or anyone else's way works for them, woopie. But I really don't care. An opinion on something was asked for, I put mine forth. My opinion was disagreed with, I explained my position, my job here is now done. Lol.

Oh, on the link, the second and third page of that thread is where the light and darkness gets dragged in.

Religion spreads false words.They are there not to follow but to teach others of how much life can be meaningful and to NOT take granted for.

Think outside the box,darkked.
Demons are just like us.Why?Do we know that they also have love?Do we know who they really are?We can't just assume them to be just evil.Good and evil are just perceptions of the mind.

Sure,you can deny that but its a fact as demons are also part of the universe just like us.They don't mess with any people.Therefore why must we attack them?

Still,i feel sorry for those who believed that demons are evil.When in fact,they are not.Religion have been very much used as a staging propaganda for power hungry freaks.You get the attention and you'll get your slaves.Its that simple.

Besides,the foundation of Magick is energy.There is not much connection with Magick and Religion.I suggest you wake up and stop your desperate ego fillings.

not much connection between magic and religion>?!. i get frustrated sometimes and that is my own shortcoming for which i apologize. i say that this thread is ridiculous not because i feel i have the theory that is absolute but because the discussion did not resemble a debate so much as random inference into obscure or maybe non-existent"sources". to place conviction into arguments that have no basis is foolish, as is arguing points that are valid without citing their validity. a community such as this is more valued as a place to discover greater truths than those that can be found in the mainstream and loses this value when opinions are spewed at each other in the guise of fact. that is my statement. i sincerely regret posting and will be sure to be more discriminating next time. thank you for reminding me why i stay away from the public forums for the most part.

ummm...it wasn't directed to you :P

Lol. If you would like to know my sources Arca, they are many. But I will name the ones I can remember.

Allegra
Amiem2010
Asmo
Kao
Nevermore27
The Goetia

*shrugs* Now they are not non-existent sources are they?

reread the goetia thoroughly, because that is one of the books i am speaking about. Also, there is a LARGE connection between Religion and Magick, for both are very closely intertwined in the spiritual world, despite what religion it may be. Also, how is a demon like us? In truth, a demon is nothing like us, they are not stupid, and they are not wasteful, nor do they mistake one thing for another. And yes, they do attack when dragged out if given the chance, and saidGuidenc, i have to say, i do not truly know where your sources are from, and i respect that, but from just reading the url code, it seems some of the information comes from this website, which is the worst support (no offnse to anyone here) you can possibly get to prove this point of yours, mostly being that this site is nothing like how it started out, and many "role players" stick very close to this site. Now, i am sorry but, if I am told that i know nothing about the elf god and the realm of elves and dragons... then im sorry, but i cannot take that person, nor anyone else on the same site as serious.
Again, reread the goetia, namely the lesser key of solomon, which does prove my point on not only sealing demons, but also the connection in religion (king solomon is the main figure mentioned in this book, an imporant CHRISTIAN figure) and the fact that demons are given that title because of their fallen status, (refer to the descriptions of each one, specifically those who seem to show signs of wishing repentence *one being phenex*).
Last, there is truth in this world, in all worlds actually, both physical, spiritual and mental, Laws that govern everything, and in deiscovering those laws (i am NOT saying that i have discovered them) you find the so called "possible unexistent" truth.
Also, about that whole idea where "my idea works for me"... No offence, but that saying is exactly like "ignorance is bliss" and completely counters the idea of an open mind.

Now for Solarn.
You say religion spreads false words, yet you believe in something that can basically be taken as a religion... Magick. Magick, as i have come to know, is a way of life for most people, and yet still a philosophy, therefore, technicaly, it can be counted as a religion, and yet you believe it. Funny also how your beliefe is closely connected with many religions, but because you have not dug deep enough to find any sort of connection, you decide that there is none, and that religion bears false words to it.
Also, Demons and humans are very different, why? because we live in a different plain of existence, the physical plain, where things like suffuring, love, TIME, DEATH and LIFE are all too common to us, yet in the spiritual world, how can they experience these things, expecially the last things.
And demons are part of this universe, that cannot be denied, but a demon obtained its reputation for a reason, not out of thin air. If we called a demon "angel" instead, then we would instead be classifying angel's as evil, because it is not the word that matters, but the definition behind that word.
Last, your are right about magick being energy, but even energy has two poles to it, NEGATIVE and POSITIVE. And again, though you may think religion is so much more different then magick, guess how magick started, here is a hint, it was not a lesson in school, no, everything you learn and know originated from a religion which became prosecuted, and then finally lost the title religion, but none the less, you follow a religion.
And religion is not for the power hungry, if you must know. Of course it is abused (so is magick) and used for self gain (again, so is magick) but it is not meant to be used for power. And looking at the fact that magick is more used for power then religion, i kind of see some hypocracy to your statement.

AS respect for Arca, i wish to site my sources.

Lesser Key of solomon
Bible
Internet sites (mostly when looking for definitions)
Magick encyclopedias (non internet based, with listed sources)
Brief Biography on aliester crowley
Lessons and conversations with other people
Self connections made when studying religion and magick

That is all i can remember for now.

And SaidGuidenc, Reread your sources and show some respect to others (That being Arca)
last, it is funny how your sources are members of this website.

I don't recall saying i believed in MAGICK.That's one thing.
And this is why i dislike for being criticized for the very wrong reason such as that.

Energy is in fact,neutral which has both positive and negative effects.I didn't literally meant religion to be JUST for the power hungry.Religion to teach us different views and to respect or be that way.And NO,knowledge didn't came from religion.It came from those who thought outside the box.Be it they are from or not.

And as for demon part,LOVE,Death,Time and Life doesn't have to be at a physical level.Its actually HAD been universal.Haven't you heard of the ethereal or even the universe?Seriously,that is one screwed logic which is really flawed just by reading into so much of books written by different people.
Demons and humans do have most things in common.Like someone said,Demons are very old and wise.However,most humans actually doubt themselves and haven't quite yet allowed themselves to be who they really are.

In fact,any souls born do have some things in common.Each individual has his/her/its own uniqueness and all should be respected regardless of difference.

Sugar, who is to say my sources aren't old people? Look up kao in the forums a bit sugar, he's old. Lol. He's actually in trouble on this site for some of the actions he took. Do I support them? No. Do I ask him questions? Yes.

Same goes for all the people on that list. Don't discount someone as a new person because you honestly don't know any better. For all you know I joined two days ago, or 6 years ago. With the way gags tend to go, you don't keep your original name very long at all. Is that your original name darkked? Or is it some other name? Are you one of the lucky few that lucked out and managed to keep their original name?

I did read the Goetia thoroughly, and out of it I got they are quite powerful entities who have a will of their own. The summoner attempts to control them by containing them, and by summoning them in itself. But after the summoning, does it say if it is a forced thing or that it is a deal between parties? It doesn't. Why would you need to attempt to control the will of a wild beast? You don't. You contain it. You don't attempt to force it to your will through pain and torture, or do you call that curse in it lovely? Go re-read the book with new eyes. Just because it says one thing, doesn't mean it doesn't mean something different.

Roleplayers are on every magic site, it is part of what we have to deal with the media and such. *shrugs* Get used to it or get out of the net and be a solitary practitioner and hermit and you'll never see another roleplayer again.

"I am told that i know nothing about the elf god and the realm of elves and dragons... then im sorry, but i cannot take that person, nor anyone else on the same site as serious." ---Darkked

Honey, you are on this site. You should get out if you want to be taken seriously. Don't make foolish statements that include yourself within it. Or else, how do you expect me to take you seriously?

I don't know if the demons of the Goetia are demons, just "malicious spirits" like the book says, or if they are parts of the mind like Crowley said. I really don't know. Depending on the argument I can take any side as I see them all as valid points. Maybe some of the "demons" are demons, some are spirits, and some are the mind. I really don't know as I haven't summoned every single one of them because I ain't that dang crazy to do that at this stage.

The Goetia is the first part of the Lemegeton, aka the Lesser Key. The Lesser Key itself is 5 or 6 books (too tired to care to look it up). Just saying it is more than the Goetia.

Solomon came before the Christians honey, he is actually Jewish. That being said, there is no proof he lived, or he summoned demons, or even that the two king Solomon's (with one in the bible and one in the Key's) were the same person. *shrugs* Just because there is religion in it now, doesn't mean there was always religion in it.

These books were also written by the victory honey, you really don't know if it is true until you summon or call up the demon yourself. Once you do then you can ask if he repents. What better proof that you are in the right than have one of those in the wrong repent? Hmm? Isn't that a form of strategy?

You can't really prove an existence of the truth, just like you can't really prove anyone outside of you exists. If you can't prove the physical is there, we move not the spiritual, well, some people have no spiritual leanings. Atheists exist without a spiritual world. We cannot prove the existence of the spiritual world outside of ourselves. As for mental, who is to say that this isn't some elaborate dream made up by you?

My suggestion is to go read The Allegory of the Cave by Plato, the first two of Decartes meditations, What Is it Like to Be a Bat? by Thomas Nagal and a few other works of "dead old white men" as my teacher put it. These works will make you question if you really are here or not and will let you see why I feel as I do about truth. Lol.

My mind is open, however, that doesn't mean I'll believe you in a heartbeat. I can believe whatever I wish, whenever I wish, as long as it works for me, it doesn't matter really. Lol. One second I can call all the "spirits" of the Goetia demons, the next spirits, and the next creations of the mind. It really depends on the mood I am in and where I stand at this moment in time.

This is the path I walk, don't like it? Walk the other direction hun, because I ain't changing from the path that chose me. Lol.



Now, I know your next comments are for Solarn, however since I'm feeling generous I think I'll post on those as well.

Killing off the connection between religion and magic isn't the same as it not being there. I can use whatever religion I wish, whenever I wish, to achieve whatever goal I wish and it makes no difference to me if they don't mesh as long as they work.

To be honest, religion does tell lies, wading through those lies to find any kind of truth, however temporary, is what the goal is. Within every story there lies a grain of truth, the whole bible as any religion is a story, therefore, within all of them exists this grain of truth. *shrugs* Who said you are right and they are wrong?

Who says they cannot experience those things? In my current beliefs that is what we are here for. To allow them to live through us. *shrugs* You think differently? So what? It isn't gonna change my stance through petty words. Lol.

Definitions are often wrong, especially after the word has been used so long people forget the original meaning.

Also, honey, you find darkness bad. Something with more light than darkness shows up, therefore, the something must be bad. Ever wonder why people have a fear of the dark? It is a part of our animal instincts. The darkness means unknown and possibly dangerous things, so slap a label on something and call it dangerous because it looks scary. Lol. But being as well read as you are I am sure you already knew that.

A religion of unknown things created the laptop in front of me? Or did we build and tear down those original ideas into something new. Sorry to take a bit of a fluffy approach to this quote, but "Living forever means you have to keep changing, growing, evolving to fit in with the times. If you don't, you don't survive."--Almost Human by Unknown Author (can't remember the name, and can't find it on the net, sorry, but the story is about vampires and includes one named Nikita (sp) in it.)

The use of magic for power, or religion for power really doesn't matter. Both have been used for the same end.



Also, I show my respect to those I have deemed worthy of it. Arca has yet to be deemed worthy of it, therefore, he starts out on the same playing field as everyone else. If you want my respect Arca, prove your worth of it by some action or some words. *shrugs* I respect you more than Darkked because you don't seem to be having your nose stuck in a book as much, but also because you are a member of darkermaster's and ginny's coven, and I have great respect for the both of them. :)

Who my sources are doesn't matter. What they say does. And if you knew even half of them...even slightly you would see why I count them as credible. But you do not.

Allegra, I don't know how she would react.
Amiem2010 is the same.
Asmo will not bother with you more likely than not. *shrugs* It really depends on his mood.
Kao you will never meet.
Nevermore2010 will probably not want to put up with your attitude (demanding respect) for long.

Lol. Do not discount people you do not know. If you knew them, it would be a different story, but you don't know them, so hush up about how credible they are dear, because you are just as credible as they are, if not less.



I am now done with this thread. If anyone wants me mail or pm works just fine. I just really can see this is going nowhere fast. In the end all this will keep doing is get the thread locked, which will upset me somewhere down the road because I will want to reopen the subject more likely than not. *shrugs* So I am walking out before I have to call the mods' and my Priestesses' wrath upon myself for my behavior. I really don't want to do that. Two of the three can be very very scary when they wanna be. ^__^

Lol. I made such a long post I didn't see Solarn post. Lol.

^__^ Solarn is right in this, and as an older and wiser person than I, he knows more then me on these things.

Lol. That and he's probably not half asleep. Lol.