Science & God/s & Magic?

A little background:

My mother was Catholic, but never practiced. I believe she is atheist now. My father's side of the family is Christian. I grew up in that faith until I was in my teens. At that time I broke away and began researching other religions though I never really found one that resonated with me. During college I began to lean more on the side of science and nature, but it has been a struggle for me to completely reject Christianity regardless of my doubts about it.

Over the course of my life I have been drawn to witchcraft, though up until now have never practiced. I have been researching traditional witchcraft instead of Wicca because I would like to practice sans god/ddesses if possible. The majority of spells I find seem to be deity related. Up until this point I have been only working spells and rituals dealing with the Elements and the self.

I was wondering if anyone here has gone through this struggle. If so, I would love to hear about how you went about tackling this and/or how you moved passed it. Again, I have been doing my own research including reading many of the articles on this site, but if anyone knows off hand of some literature which might prove useful or that helped them it would be greatly appreciated.

- V

Login or Signup to reply to this post.

I too struggled with this and I can guarantee that we're not the only two. My family is Catholic although not quite as Orthodox as many Irish families, so as a result I was raised Catholic. Christianity never quite sat right with me though, I personally couldn't grasp the idea of having only one god but then two other almost sub-god/godly figures in the form of the son and holy spirit, not to mention all the saints and angels. I didn't see why only one of the entities was awarded the title of God. So like you I started reading about as many different religions as I could as I felt that there certainly was something spiritual inside of me but it just wasn't Christianity.

Having tried as many different "min stream" religions as I could think of I found nothing felt quite right, it was either not sitting right with me spiritually or too far removed from my own culture. That's when I actually decided to give Christianity another shot and started reading back through it's history until I got to the arrival of the faith in Ireland and I discovered that Saint Brigid was originally the Celtic Goddess Brighid. After reading some more about her I got onto the Gaelic side of the Celts as a passive interest for a long time and thought I'd try making an offering to Brighid's father the Dagda. It was that moment that sealed it for me, I spent some time trapped in a transition period between the two faiths where I would call myself Christian yet actively work with the Celtic pantheon but that soon changed after I arrived at university.

So basically I solved it through trial and error although I did have to take that step and actively try the new faith. Ultimately even if you decide you don't like any of the faiths, go back to God and repent, that was my standing on it anyway.

Unfortunately I don't know of any literature specifically that can help because really you need to have a more specific idea of what it is you want to explore, there's plenty of books on all kinds of religions but I don't know of any that guide you through all of them unfortunately.

I wish you luck though, my advice is to give it time and try to take things one step t a time. Eventually you'll figure out where you want to go spiritually but until then don't go burning any hypothetical bridges and try to keep n open mind about things. Sorry I can't be of any more specific help.

I think many people deal with similar things. I'm a Christian and believe in God, yet Dinasours aren't mentioned in the bible nor could all the non-aquatic species on Earth fit on Noah's Ark. On this religious versus science topic I finally decided that God omitted a few what he might consider inconsequential facts (possibly as a test of faith) such as creating Dinasours early on and after observing them wiped them out and that animals have evolved though I don't believe humans evolved from apes. The bible is also against witchcraft but I think of it as people who use witchcraft for evil as we are made in God's image, Jesus performed miracles, there were people with precognitive/psychic gifts from God in the bible yet they weren't evil, etc... I like many have had doubts but I still hold strong to my faiths. My point is that if you believe in Christianity then you know as a human can't fully comprehend God and one day we will hopefully understand his decisions. In the end only you can truly come to the conclusions as whats best for you and literature won't help much in my opinion not that I know of any. It sounds corny but follow your heart is the best advice I can give as your head can lead you astray.
PS. I only use the elements in spells as it's non religious based and a factual part of nature/reality.

Thanks for responding Murfie.

Recently, I have been doing some research into Christianity and its evolution from the Celts. It has been an interesting journey, even though I feel like I have just began, because I would like to learn more about spirituality in combination with my heritage. I like your philosophy "if you don't like any of the faiths, go back to God and repent." It seems to make researching and experiencing different options less stressful.

I took a glance at your profile and noted that you lean more toward rituals and the elements. This seems to be where I feel most comfortable. I'm not sure that I am ready to making an offering to any deity, god, or goddess yet. I know I definitely need to do more research first though I do understand what you mean about actually practicing.

During my years at university I began to lean much more heavily on science and facts. Since I come from a western medicine background though I can definitely see parallels between science and magic. The more I research the more I am inclined to believe that all things be they scientific, magical, or spiritual are interwoven. Though the hardest part for me has been wrapping my brain around the place religion (specifically organized religion) has within this framework.

Lately, I have been trying to do as much research as I can about herbs and their magical uses since it makes a lot of sense to me scientifically as well. In terms of other spells and rituals (such as simple cleansing and protection spells) it has been more difficult to come across ones that do not call to or invoke a deity, god, or goddess (or a grouping of such). I have mostly began to tweak spells I have come across or write my own.

Again, thank you for your time in replying to my post. Also, on a side note, admittedly I am a bit jealous that you are located in London. A few years ago when I living in Bath and travelling around Europe (I reside in the US) I found it amazing the sheer amount of history that surrounded me in everyday life. I miss it. Someday, I am hoping to move back to Europe for a more extended period of time.

- V

NimirRaj thank you too for taking the time to post. Despite my being raised Christian I am not altogether sure that this is where I belong. Though certainly it is difficult to stray far from this path (at least for me). I do not believe in the other deities, gods, or goddesses and it seems awkward for me to call upon them in my rituals and spells. Though, I am not sure exactly what you meant by the dinosaur analogy your mention of "miracles" and "psychics" during the time of Christ on earth does interest me. It is intriguing to think about these things from another perspective.

Have you found a way to narrow your search to find only elemental/nature spells or rituals? I have been having to do much sifting and feel like I cannot be the only one doing this.

Thanks again.

- V

Viv,

As I previously said in the chatter, Christianity is a very occult religion.
They just don't acknowledge it. If you left Christianity because your doubts or the lack of Magick in it, there is a lot.

1. The Cabala is the Christian equivalent to the Kabbalah,

2. Old Christians practiced Tarot,

3. Christianity incorporates Angels but does have a bad view of demons and devils.

4. The lesser panishing ritual of the pentagram, has Christian prayer in it except it is vibrated in hebrew

Etc. Etc.

I also stated my belief, that various deities are the same or run parallel to one and other, they are just viewed in a different perspective.

1. Kemetic-Christian equivalency.

ISIS is the kemetic equivalent to MARIA (MARY)
HORUS is the kemetic equivalent to JESUS CHRIST
OSIRIS is the kemetic equivalent to JOSEPH (I'm disagree with this)
MA'AT is the kemetic equivalent to the HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT.

Etc. Etc.
NOTE: whilst Christianity views GOD, JESUS AND SPIRIT to be three different people yet one person, kemeticsm does not have a shared view on this.

Heathen-Christian Equivalency.
NOTE: this one is highly disputable and all the following ,ay be false the following is just a similarity and not a complete connection.

ODIN-GOD
God is considered the father and Odin is the all-father, plus they are both leaders of their religion.

THOR-CHRIST
this came to me via deep meditation, they are both the son of the leader, and both seem a good fit.

Etc. Etc.

VODOU-CHRISTIAN equivalency
NOTE: this has huge similarities and use each others rituals, both seem connected deeply.

I don't really perform rituals and simply invoke the elements in spell work combined with normally writing my own spells. I have used a spell to call the quarters/watchtowers written by someone else but an example is I've asked the element air/wind to direct my spell to its target. Also the elements are sometimes related to passion/emotions, aspects of one's personality, healing, etc... so I've incorporated in the past fire into a spell for protection as fire purifies, destroys, gives off light in darkness, etc... My dinasour analogy as you put it was just to point out ways science is said to disprove the bible because it isn't mentioned but I don't think an omission equates a lie or in other words it doesn't effect my faith just makes me curious. I agree with the other posts regarding aspects of magick exisingt in Christianity.

in 14 years of practicing magic, I have never once found any gods that would serve my purposes, so I have never used any gods in my magic. I kinda see them as silly and unnecessary, even if they do exist. Deities just kinda look like silly little things that would annoy me and get in my way, and why would I bother with them when I don't even like the idea of them.

In short, yes you can easily practice magic without gods. You just have to take it from the basics, and expand with an understanding of the world, and the laws that rule it.

You,

Yes, Kemeticism and Christianity can be linked, as can any religions you want to smush together to make it fit the way -you- want. It certainly doesn't make the squishing right or even correct, especially when so little is actually linked and when assumptions are made. Please, I'm asking this now, do some research before bringing in religions you don't know and/or understand.

Yes, you can equate those Christian people (God and the Holy Spirit included) and netjeru (either as gods or as concepts). However, Jesus was more... submissive for lack of a better term than Heru in any of his forms. He didn't fight against anyone or anything but wrongdoings and demons. Heru (in many forms) fights Set, who is not evil even by ancient standards. There is only one real evil, and that is isfet who manifests as Ap-p. I've already made a post that contrasts Mary and Aset ( http://www.spellsofmagic.com/read_post.html?post=456411 ). I'll just say that the idea that Wesir is Joseph is a bit laughable, as Wesir is so much more than the carpenter that raised the son of God. Ma'at is somewhat like the Holy Ghost, but I wouldn't straight equate them as much as call them siblings. They are close in nature, but not the same.

Also, in certain groups of Kemeticism, we practice monolatry which is a form of henotheism. In monolatry, we believe that our gods are many, but all are aspects/emanating from one single form of god; this is the concept of Netjer or Tem. Yes, this concept was existent in ancient times, and Akhenaten is the one who pushed it further forward into developing. Before his heresy, ancient Kemet was moving towards this rather slowly. In the Ptolemy period, it was at it's height as Greek and Kemetic gods were squished together to fit.

Viv,

I had the exact same sort of thoughts when I was much younger, but as I grew older I moved more and more towards a religion I loved, felt comfortable and at home in, and that respects and appreciates the magic that I do. I think if you have concerns about whether you should leave your religion or not due to its less than obvious occult side, you should do some research on the religion, magic, and the rituals that different sects perform. I would also bother BGReturns, as he is a pretty wise Christian practitioner.

I wish you luck.

I kind of allways considered magick and science the same thing.