The Ten Key Element Sys'm

You have no idea what I mean?

You specifically stated that the Initiation to Hermetics referred to the elements of Darkness and Light. It did not.

So... what gives?

What makes anything you say believable? haha. You're just dancing in circles and grasping at straws. It'd go well with an accordion.

And I quote:

"Light, whether you want to believe it or not existed BEFORE fire andDark before water. This information can be found in many places, but one of the most outstanding sourcesis the Hermetic Magick texts. See the InitiationInto Hermetics book for these two paragraphs!"


"It is the actual thing that overcomes a person when their spirit leaves their body permanently. In the Initiation Into Hermetics , it specifically discusses Light and Dark as elements ."

Bold falsehoods, quoted directly from you. Do go on though...

And I quote:

"Light, whether you want to believe it or not existed BEFORE fire andDark before water. This information can be found in many places, but one of the most outstanding sourcesis the Hermetic Magick texts. See the InitiationInto Hermetics book for these two paragraphs!"


"It is the actual thing that overcomes a person when their spirit leaves their body permanently. In the Initiation Into Hermetics , it specifically discusses Light and Dark as elements ."

Bold falsehoods, quoted directly from you. Do go on though...

You can only use that to justify the concept of light being an element to itself by ignoring the previous statement within the same text:
"Light without fire is unconceivable and for this particular reason it is an aspect of the fire."

As for the second quote, what was the context? That was a direct quote from you, combining two different arguments. I didn't think it made sense either.

What I was addressing however was the simple fact that the book never explores light and dark as elements. It only discusses the nature of light as being an aspect of fire.

It means light is fore and fire is light, come on hun you really need to read the things you so boldly put down.

But that doesn't make light a separate element unto itself.

This is my original point.

You can only use that to justify the concept of light being an element to itself by ignoring the previous statement within the same text:
"Light without fire is unconceivable and for this particular reason it is an aspect of the fire."

As for the second quote, what was the context? That was a direct quote from you, combining two different arguments. I didn't think it made sense either.

What I was addressing however was the simple fact that the book never explores light and dark as elements. It only discusses the nature of light as being an aspect of fire.

And yet you continue to fail to provide a reference to anything concerning blackfire.

Fine: for lack of more sources at this time,look into the Bible. It is a fire that burns but releases no Light and is cold. It is also an occurence that firefighters deal with (though not the same concept as the Biblical reference).

--THUNOR

I am going to stay as neutral as possible here. I would just like to state my personal opinion based on my research and knowledge.

This information can be found in
"The Medicine of the Cherokee" by Garret and "Shamanic Experience" by Meadows. I don't put much value on books of Native American content and only used them to write down full info on the elements.

Since Native American belief was brought up. =)

West is Earth, darkness of night with moon energy, symbolizing the darkened land aka netherworld. Also represents the direction of the physical, but physical completion as well aka death.

So right there, earth is both darkness and death.

South is water, nature, where the spirit becomes the human being aka life

So water is life as well.

East is fire, beginnings and the sun. The direction for fires stems from the knowledge that the sun rises in the east. The sun and fire produce our light. It is the active alive flow of energy connection us to the universal spirit. It is the spirit path, based on spiritual influence. That active alive flowing energy would be considered the soul.

So fire is the soul and light.

North is air, it is of the mental path. The direction corresponding with wind comes from the cold north wind that brings in the winter. It is both strong and disciplined like the wolf but also gentle and kind like the deer. The wind gives us messages from the spirits. It is the messenger between the worlds.

I hope this somehow helps. I do understand that these "keys" as Thunor stated are categories very commonly referred to by spirits. Our deities also direction relate to them, but I personally feel they can all be brought back to the simplicity of the natural 4 elements, and spirit resides within each one in their purest form or essence. These could be considered "categories" of magick but I wouldn't label them "elements" because an element is something that makes up other things, not that other things can make.

It was a nicely made classification of categories though. And I don't think that using them in magick will harm the outcome of the magick itself. But it's always good to know what elements correspond to such categories.

From more european based knowledge, if I'm not mistaken, most consider spirit as a representation of time because it is beyond time. Within spirit all time is one.

I also want to add that I'm not sure why they chose earth for west and water for south. I'm guessing that it had something to do with the area they lived in. But I've never found confirmation of that through any source, living or text. I think those who knew died with that information. But I do find it fascinating that fire and water, earth and air are on opposite sides, just like that of the European element correspondences. Even they recognized their polarity, halfway across the world! And they are in an identical order, only rotated counter clockwise one quarter. That's why I say, regardless of culture, every magickal practioner worked with the same spirit world.