The Ten Key Element Sys'm

But lets explore deeper, shall we? It does after all mention "the light."

But in the very first sentence is says "Light is established on the principle of fire." It then goes on to say "Light without fire is unconceivable and for this particular reason it is an aspect of the fire. Each fiery element can be converted into the other way around. Therefore light involves all the specific qualities such as shining, penetrating, expanding."

If you had explored further within the texts where you found that earth is described as providing the solid nature of the physical body... and then rambled out other nonsense about the other forms... You'd have also found that they describe air as being the basis for imagination, whimsy, thought, etc. A good example of this would be Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Knowledge.

The element of light does not exist (as I have just pointed out using your own hermetic source). Photons exist, yes, but they need not exist outside of any of the original four elements. As describe within the hermetic texts, they are easily attributed to the light of fire.

Death is not an element. The aura you describe has nothing to do with an individual element. As I said earlier, it is part of the state of existence, or the change. Wet jeans look darker than when they are dry. The aura of a dying individual changes as they transcend from one life into that which comes next. Sometimes this is perceived as "darker." That does not make this an element.

To continue to debunk this... I would also point out that "storms" are very much a combination of water and air. The presence that is felt is a combination of air pressure (colliding fronts and whatnot... You know about photons but not air pressure? Come on now...) and the possibility of electric build up in the air. I'll give you that lightning is not fully understood, but that does not make it an element.

Onyx... Aether... Earth... You are now just confusing things for no gain again. "Earth" makes up the solid state of physical man because "earth" is the element that is used to describe the solid state of all things. The the spirit and the soul however are much the same thing, though perhaps different aspects of the whole. As the whole, it is all composed entirely of the same thing. This is the spirit, or the divine... or the aether. You have therefore just contradicted yourself in referring to the same "mass" as two different elements. Why?

And yes, if you are using the periodic table for magical purposes it wouldn't make much sense. That is exactly my point. Why bother breaking down the four concepts that encompass all things (with the inclusion of spirit) into unnecessary sub groups that are created through misinterpretation a lack of understanding?

Have you never heard of black fire Awake? Fire that burns but gives off no Light? That is Fire without the element of Light. Please note that I do not regard the Hermetic source as 100% accurate. Now, why would anyone attribute Air with the quality of thoughts? That makes some sense, that's why! Now, psionic waves do NOT make any sense to belong to the airy principle. That is obsurd, so a new term must be made, which this "new" term was made many, many years ago.

Now, I NEVER said that it was their aura. I said it was a black aura [-type] thing that covers it.

Now, as for Storm, I already explained further down that it is Orgone. Look that term up if you aren't familiar with it please.

And the spirit and soul are VERY VERY VERY much different . They are not one and the same, therefore I did no contradiction of myself. According to your "aspects of the whole" theory, the body would then be composed of the same thing as the spirit and soul!

I'm glad we agree on at least one point! lol

--THUNOR

Have you never heard of black fire Awake? Fire that burns but gives off no Light? That is Fire without the element of Light. Please note that I do not regard the Hermetic source as 100% accurate. Now, why would anyone attribute Air with the quality of thoughts? That makes some sense, that's why! Now, psionic waves do NOT make any sense to belong to the airy principle. That is obsurd, so a new term must be made, which this "new" term was made many, many years ago.

Now, I NEVER said that it was their aura. I said it was a black aura [-type] thing that covers it.

Now, as for Storm, I already explained further down that it is Orgone. Look that term up if you aren't familiar with it please.

And the spirit and soul are VERY VERY VERY much different . They are not one and the same, therefore I did no contradiction of myself. According to your "aspects of the whole" theory, the body would then be composed of the same thing as the spirit and soul!

I'm glad we agree on at least one point! lol

You never claimed Hermetics to be 100% accurate. You did however claim that Hermetics discuss light and darkness as elements unto themselves. You even went so far as to refer specifically to the book which I quoted. Interestingly, as the text I quoted suggests, Hermetics never does any such thing.

The simple fact that you are referring me to a book about something and you were completely wrong about it casts all sorts of doubt about this "ancient native american text." Because gods know, the various native american tribes were known for possessing vast libraries...

No. I have not heard the term "black fire" except within an old dungeons and dragons manual back in the 90s. Is this your ancient native american book? (I kid, sorta). If you could point me towards an actual reference I'd be glad to show you again how you misread it.

In terms of death being an element again... You didn't actually debate anything but your wording. So, guess you don't know where to go from there.

From the quick research I've done on the Orgone concept it both associates it as the "universal life force" (and therefore rapidly falling back into the ruling force of divinity, spirit, etc) and was otherwise rapidly torn apart by scientists and even most meta-physicists who explored the concept. It also has next to nothing to do with storms. So... It remains a rather pointless element that is easily blended in with the original four (plus one). "Storm" here makes about much sense as Air does for thoughts... Oh wait...

So it's a metaphor then? Ah, well... so these esoteric concepts are explained in metaphor and not just literal definition? Ah, then yes... in observing the energy and flow of air it then makes sense how thoughts... elusive, transient, and every changing... could easily be associated with air! Well then. Guess we solved all of that rather neatly, mm?

Oh, wait. One more thing. The whole spirit and soul being different.

They are indeed vastly different concepts. However they are definitely composed of the same energy. For that matter, so is the body. All matter is energy. Thought you would have picked that up in your exploration of photons as well. Interestingly... Energy neatly falls into that category of spirit or divinity as well.

You see, those original four elements were the original breakdown. They took apart the universal core of everything (divine, spirit, etc) and neatly tied them into four elements that cleverly described not only the aspects of the esoteric concepts but the physical qualities of the earth as well... science was not so fully separated from religion and spirituality back then.

These other "new" elements are pointless. Sure, we could break things down... But as you said, breaking them down so minutely simply makes it more confusing and impossible to use.

The entire point here is that this attempt to "clarify" with additional elements only serves to further confuse communication about magic when exploring between various traditions.

If it isn't broke don't fix it.

Have you never heard of black fire Awake? Fire that burns but gives off no Light? That is Fire without the element of Light. Please note that I do not regard the Hermetic source as 100% accurate. Now, why would anyone attribute Air with the quality of thoughts? That makes some sense, that's why! Now, psionic waves do NOT make any sense to belong to the airy principle. That is obsurd, so a new term must be made, which this "new" term was made many, many years ago.

Now, I NEVER said that it was their aura. I said it was a black aura [-type] thing that covers it.

Now, as for Storm, I already explained further down that it is Orgone. Look that term up if you aren't familiar with it please.

And the spirit and soul are VERY VERY VERY much different . They are not one and the same, therefore I did no contradiction of myself. According to your "aspects of the whole" theory, the body would then be composed of the same thing as the spirit and soul!

I'm glad we agree on at least one point! lol

You never claimed Hermetics to be 100% accurate. You did however claim that Hermetics discuss light and darkness as elements unto themselves. You even went so far as to refer specifically to the book which I quoted. Interestingly, as the text I quoted suggests, Hermetics never does any such thing.

The simple fact that you are referring me to a book about something and you were completely wrong about it casts all sorts of doubt about this "ancient native american text." Because gods know, the various native american tribes were known for possessing vast libraries...

No. I have not heard the term "black fire" except within an old dungeons and dragons manual back in the 90s. Is this your ancient native american book? (I kid, sorta). If you could point me towards an actual reference I'd be glad to show you again how you misread it.

In terms of death being an element again... You didn't actually debate anything but your wording. So, guess you don't know where to go from there.

From the quick research I've done on the Orgone concept it both associates it as the "universal life force" (and therefore rapidly falling back into the ruling force of divinity, spirit, etc) and was otherwise rapidly torn apart by scientists and even most meta-physicists who explored the concept. It also has next to nothing to do with storms. So... It remains a rather pointless element that is easily blended in with the original four (plus one). "Storm" here makes about much sense as Air does for thoughts... Oh wait...

So it's a metaphor then? Ah, well... so these esoteric concepts are explained in metaphor and not just literal definition? Ah, then yes... in observing the energy and flow of air it then makes sense how thoughts... elusive, transient, and every changing... could easily be associated with air! Well then. Guess we solved all of that rather neatly, mm?

Oh, wait. One more thing. The whole spirit and soul being different.

They are indeed vastly different concepts. However they are definitely composed of the same energy. For that matter, so is the body. All matter is energy. Thought you would have picked that up in your exploration of photons as well. Interestingly... Energy neatly falls into that category of spirit or divinity as well.

You see, those original four elements were the original breakdown. They took apart the universal core of everything (divine, spirit, etc) and neatly tied them into four elements that cleverly described not only the aspects of the esoteric concepts but the physical qualities of the earth as well... science was not so fully separated from religion and spirituality back then.

These other "new" elements are pointless. Sure, we could break things down... But as you said, breaking them down so minutely simply makes it more confusing and impossible to use.

The entire point here is that this attempt to "clarify" with additional elements only serves to further confuse communication about magic when exploring between various traditions.

If it isn't broke don't fix it.

I never used the native American text to describe what black fire was or even reference it. That comes from a totally different source. Also, in many games, "Lightning" is a spell...does this mean that Lightning does not exist?!; no, of course not! When seen from this light, the concept of it not being real because it is game-based is now obsurd and senile.

As far as Death being an element, I triedto explain what the difference was between what I meant and what you thought I meant was: you thought I meant that the person's aura turns black; I actually meant that the person's aura remains, but a blanketting/covering of this dark "aura like" thing comes over it.

On Orgone, you obviously have not read about the modern day scientists who do still give it credit. It is a "universal force" only on the planet of Earth, therefore meaning that it has to do with our unique atmosphere. It is not a truly universal force like the Aether is though. Also, as you stated, your research was "brief", therefore not reliable.

"All matter is energy"...the spirit is not matter though, and neither is the soul!

They did indeed break it apart, but it was refined over time, leaving us with this list. Diamonds must be cut and gold must be refined to give them their true values.

I have had many people who say this information is very useful, they are not in any way confused about it. In fact, after clarification, you seem to be the only skeptic.

--THUNOR

I never used the native American text to describe what black fire was or even reference it. That comes from a totally different source. Also, in many games, "Lightning" is a spell...does this mean that Lightning does not exist?!; no, of course not! When seen from this light, the concept of it not being real because it is game-based is now obsurd and senile.

As far as Death being an element, I triedto explain what the difference was between what I meant and what you thought I meant was: you thought I meant that the person's aura turns black; I actually meant that the person's aura remains, but a blanketting/covering of this dark "aura like" thing comes over it.

On Orgone, you obviously have not read about the modern day scientists who do still give it credit. It is a "universal force" only on the planet of Earth, therefore meaning that it has to do with our unique atmosphere. It is not a truly universal force like the Aether is though. Also, as you stated, your research was "brief", therefore not reliable.

"All matter is energy"...the spirit is not matter though, and neither is the soul!

They did indeed break it apart, but it was refined over time, leaving us with this list. Diamonds must be cut and gold must be refined to give them their true values.

I have had many people who say this information is very useful, they are not in any way confused about it. In fact, after clarification, you seem to be the only skeptic.

I understand the difference you are trying to say about death as an element. There isn't one though. It is you who are missing the point. You are describing a momentary state of being. This is not an element, but a particular change. By the same token, turning to the left might also become an element.

My reference to the game was satirical. You have not offered any reference to black fire, however. Thanks for that. Clearly you are become more credible by the moment.

No, the spirit and the soul are not matter... But they are energy. So... again, the point?

And there are many qualities unique to the earth. This does not make it necessary to create an element to encompass them. They are equally explored under other such concepts. And no, I didn't encounter any current scientists. Most of the ones who had explored it existed within the 1930s. I honestly didn't feel it was worth pursuing because... well... like most of your argument it has lacked substance.

Next time don't quote everything from two posts back. It's rather obnoxious.

Sorry for the typos. I'm cranky and going to bed. ^_^

I was wondering why y'all were doing that. Makes it hard to follow the convo. >.<

I understand the difference you are trying to say about death as an element. There isn't one though. It is you who are missing the point. You are describing a momentary state of being. This is not an element, but a particular change. By the same token, turning to the left might also become an element....

...No, the spirit and the soul are not matter... But they are energy. So... again, the point?

And there are many qualities unique to the earth. This does not make it necessary to create an element to encompass them. They are equally explored under other such concepts. And no, I didn't encounter any current scientists. Most of the ones who had explored it existed within the 1930s. I honestly didn't feel it was worth pursuing because... well... like most of your argument it has lacked substance....

Death is not as simple as "turning left"! You can be in the process of dying for a long time. You only take a moment to turn left. This time is actually the Death Essence coming over you and taking the life.

You yourself were saying that "all matter is composed of energy" and using that as a basis to discredit mine argument. It is really I who should have been asking the point. (lol-ish?)

If you fail to do the research, please do not talk the talk of discreditation!

--THUNOR

This from the bloke who specifically referred to a book as a source of his concept of "elements"... yet had no answer when the book failed to actually yield that information. This is a joke.

This from the bloke who specifically referred to a book as a source of his concept of "elements"... yet had no answer when the book failed to actually yield that information. This is a joke.

You have no idea what I mean?

You specifically stated that the Initiation to Hermetics referred to the elements of Darkness and Light. It did not.

So... what gives?

What makes anything you say believable? haha. You're just dancing in circles and grasping at straws. It'd go well with an accordion.