Seriously dude there's only 5 elements. Light and dark are not elements nor are the "sub elements" they all go back into the same general 5. Even the cultures that use wood and metal go back to earth and fire, Even when sea/sky is used as in some Gaelic cultures it still goes back to the main 5. I would love to see where you get your information from because if you ask me it looks like it's from a video that has watered the true intentions of the traditional practices.
What texts? You have shown me this before as an "authoritative" website that lists all of these elements and their corresponding "specialist" in magical practice.
I will say now what I said then...
This is all relatively modern, new-age ideas watering down traditional practice with unnecessary new vocabulary.
And I'm not speaking of century old traditional practice. This is watering down concepts born only within the last hundred, hundred and fifty years (yes, this is new in terms of magical history).
What does that make this? About as high a quality a reference as cheap beer is a high quality liquor.
All else described here are sub elements of earth, wind, fire, and water... With the exception of Aether, as you call it, which is the essence of the spirit or the divine, depending on your tradition.
If this is actually historical, please have the stones to provide true references rather than saying that it was some old book. What dretch.
First off allow me toaskhow on earth do you possibly think that Death and Onyx are part of the original 4 elements? That idea is obsurd! Secondly Storm, as I mentioned is the Orgone, a force that DOES NOT relate to any of the other elements. Light, whether you want to believe it or not existed BEFORE fire andDark before water. This information can be found in many places, but one of the most outstanding sourcesis the Hermetic Magick texts. See the InitiationInto Hermetics book for these two paragraphs!
Now, as far as the text, it comes from a very,very old Native American book that is only entitled "White Magick".AsI also stated, the information from the astral texts were EXTREMELLY small in percentage! Also the onlineinformationthat I used is very common knoweledge. I did not ever say which parts I used what sources on!
I am really getting tired of the skeptisim coming from people on here!!! You try to helppeople out and imbecils question you andinsult you and your intelligence and seem to be paranoid that you are lying and are stupid! To these persons that refuse to open theirminds, I say that you should not even practice magick, as itis something that requires BELIEF, something you don't have. Finally, do not ruin it for those of us who are actually willing to learn and are not so stuck up that we cannotlearn new practices and ideasand think that all of these new ideas are not true.
Re: The Ten Key Element Sys'm By: AwakeTooLong / Knowledgeable
Post # 14 Jul 11, 2011
Light and darkness existed before all things, yes, but that does not make them elements.
Further, if you pay any attention to anything within hermetics or any old occult works, thoughts are traditionally associated with the element of air.
Photons, "energy packets" etc are all aspects of other elements. You could break all other things discussed into the individual molecules, wavelengths, etc. if you wish. If we were going to do this then we should scrap this and use the periodic table.
Death is not an element. It is a condition. Saying that "death" is an element would be like saying "wet" is an element. It is not defined as change, as all things change... And all change is permanent - nothing can ever be made 100% exactly as it was.
Your ancient native american book that discusses magic in terms of Western European (read as 1900s) white magic explores concepts such as photons?
Re: The Ten Key Element Sys'm By: AwakeTooLong / Knowledgeable
Post # 15 Jul 11, 2011
I would further note that Hermetics generally refers only to four elements, with an exploration into their interaction and relation to the divine (spirit, aether, etc).
I belive by death he means the dead. Of course I may be wrong. However, I only call fire, earth, water, and air elements. But I'm not against him, I just think we should stop arguing how many elements there are and leave it. I think if we belive in more then four elements keep your mouth shut and do try to convert others. This website is diverse, and conversion goes to far. Leave Thunor alone as he is just sharing his research, we all do it, and we all end up with different results.
Sorry for the misgivings, allow me to clarify: the native American text just lists the elements and their qualities. I researched and implemented mine own conclusions from that, which would make the most sense.
Now, Death is an element, it is Death Essence. Death Essence is always found around the dying and as soon as the dying process has ended, significantly decreases. It often looks like a black aura covering the person/creature.
It is the actual thing that overcomes a person when their spirit leaves their body permanently. In the Initiation Into Hermetics , it specifically discusses Light and Dark as elements .
I have researched many things and have never found that Air was assoiciated with the soul. Onyx is the element that makes up the soul the same way Earth makes up the body and Aether makes up the spirit on man.
Photons are energy packets indeed, and they make up the element of Light and nothing else when they are in their physical form.
If you were to use the Period Table concept, then all elemental magick as we know it would cease to make any type of sense at all and would be useless. This is why in magick their is a different elemental system.
Which native american texts? Which tribe? This is what we're asking for. Not death is not an element nor is ice for that matter. If that was the case The Pentacle would have all sorts of points and not just 5. Use logic when it comes the very basics please >.>
Which native american texts? Which tribe? This is what we're asking for. Not death is not an element nor is ice for that matter. If that was the case The Pentacle would have all sorts of points and not just 5. Use logic when it comes the very basics please >.>
I am not positive which tribe, I shall find out in the very near future. The name of the text, as I said only said, "White Magick"...that was the name. And there is a 10-pointed star that covers the other elements thanks you very much. As far as Death, don't ask me why it was a pentagram, I don't know. I just write what I find and have found nothing on the "why" of the matter, sorry; I can try to research it. If I find something, I'll let you people know.
Re: The Ten Key Element Sys'm By: AwakeTooLong / Knowledgeable
Post # 20 Jul 11, 2011
Alright, let me go directly to the book and perhaps try to invoke some sort of reading comprehension.
Part 1: Theory
1) About the Elements
2) The Principle of Fire
3) The principle of Water
4) The principle of Air
5)The Principle of Earth
5) THe Light
7 Akasa or the Ethereal Principle
Within "About the elements" it discusses the elements both int erms of the Tarot, (referencing the sword as a fiery element, the rod as the element of air, the govlet as that of water, the coins as the element of earth).
It also then references the Indian succession of the tattwas, in which, and I quote
"it runs as follows:
Akasa - principle of ether
Tejas - principle of the fire
Waju - Principle of the air
Apas -principle of the water
Prithivi - principle of the earth"
But lets explore deeper, shall we? It does after all mention "the light."
But in the very first sentence is says "Light is established on the principle of fire." It then goes on to say "Light without fire is unconceivable and for this particular reason it is an aspect of the fire. Each fiery element can be converted into the other way around. Therefore light involves all the specific qualities such as shining, penetrating, expanding."
If you had explored further within the texts where you found that earth is described as providing the solid nature of the physical body... and then rambled out other nonsense about the other forms... You'd have also found that they describe air as being the basis for imagination, whimsy, thought, etc. A good example of this would be Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Knowledge.
The element of light does not exist (as I have just pointed out using your own hermetic source). Photons exist, yes, but they need not exist outside of any of the original four elements. As describe within the hermetic texts, they are easily attributed to the light of fire.
Death is not an element. The aura you describe has nothing to do with an individual element. As I said earlier, it is part of the state of existence, or the change. Wet jeans look darker than when they are dry. The aura of a dying individual changes as they transcend from one life into that which comes next. Sometimes this is perceived as "darker." That does not make this an element.
To continue to debunk this... I would also point out that "storms" are very much a combination of water and air. The presence that is felt is a combination of air pressure (colliding fronts and whatnot... You know about photons but not air pressure? Come on now...) and the possibility of electric build up in the air. I'll give you that lightning is not fully understood, but that does not make it an element.
Onyx... Aether... Earth... You are now just confusing things for no gain again. "Earth" makes up the solid state of physical man because "earth" is the element that is used to describe the solid state of all things. The the spirit and the soul however are much the same thing, though perhaps different aspects of the whole. As the whole, it is all composed entirely of the same thing. This is the spirit, or the divine... or the aether. You have therefore just contradicted yourself in referring to the same "mass" as two different elements. Why?
And yes, if you are using the periodic table for magical purposes it wouldn't make much sense. That is exactly my point. Why bother breaking down the four concepts that encompass all things (with the inclusion of spirit) into unnecessary sub groups that are created through misinterpretation a lack of understanding?
